AFV concealment loss?

Warbear

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A BU AFV (no PRC) is concealed in a woods hex.
If HE fire into this hex results in a PTC, does the AFV lose concealment?
 

Larry

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Case A on the concealment loss chart: , is a vehicle hit by ordnance.

If the HE shot fired on the ATT and secured a hit (+2 for concealment, size, etc.), then concealment is lost. It is not the result, it is the hit that matters for a vehicle.
 

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Thanks!
But I didn't want to ask for a To Hit, I wanted to ask for an Infantry shot against the AFV, which resulted in a Pin Task Check (on the IFT).
My opponent mentioned that this would be enough to lose concealment.
 

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Thanks!
But I didn't want to ask for a To Hit, I wanted to ask for an Infantry shot against the AFV, which resulted in a Pin Task Check (on the IFT).
My opponent mentioned that this would be enough to lose concealment.
Well if he hit concealed Infantry unit, chances are he hit a concealed Vehicle. The hit is enough. The PTC result is immaterial. It's possible the AFV is a small or double small vehicle which could be enough to cause a miss on the vehicle ands still theoretically hit Infantry. You'll have to do that math on your own. -- jim
 

klasmalmstrom

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But I didn't want to ask for a To Hit, I wanted to ask for an Infantry shot against the AFV, which resulted in a Pin Task Check (on the IFT).My opponent mentioned that this would be enough to lose concealment.
If you are attacking a concealed AFV directly on the IFT and get a "PTC" (or better) result - the AFV will only lose concealment if there's a vulnerable PRC.

A12.2:
"A concealed vehicle in the LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit (regardless of range) loses its concealment if hit on a To Hit Table, or by at least a “PTC” result vs its vulnerable PRC (or its corresponding DR, on the * Vehicle line or for OBA regardless of PRC vulnerability),.."

So just shooting into the hex and getting a "PTC" and there's no vul. PRC on the vehicle, won't cause it to lose "?".
 

Sparafucil3

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If you are attacking a concealed AFV directly on the IFT and get a "PTC" (or better) result - the AFV will only lose concealment if there's a vulnerable PRC.

A12.2:
"A concealed vehicle in the LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit (regardless of range) loses its concealment if hit on a To Hit Table, or by at least a “PTC” result vs its vulnerable PRC (or its corresponding DR, on the * Vehicle line or for OBA regardless of PRC vulnerability),.."

So just shooting into the hex and getting a "PTC" and there's no vul. PRC on the vehicle, won't cause it to lose "?".
So Case A on the Gain/Loss table says "Vehicle Hit by Ordnance". Assuming the the DR was rolled low enough to affect the vehicle, wouldn't that qualify as "hit by Ordnance" and thus remove concealment? Or is your contention that "Vehicle Hit by Ordnance" only applies if it is hit on the VTT? -- jim
 

klasmalmstrom

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So Case A on the Gain/Loss table says "Vehicle Hit by Ordnance". Assuming the the DR was rolled low enough to affect the vehicle, wouldn't that qualify as "hit by Ordnance" and thus remove concealment? Or is your contention that "Vehicle Hit by Ordnance" only applies if it is hit on the VTT?
Per A12.2 a hit on any To Hit Table will strip "?":
A concealed vehicle in the LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit (regardless of range) loses its concealment if hit on a To Hit Table,..."
 

Sparafucil3

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Per A12.2 a hit on any To Hit Table will strip "?":
A concealed vehicle in the LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit (regardless of range) loses its concealment if hit on a To Hit Table,..."
Agreed. I just want to make sure that if an Attack rolls low enough on the TH DR using ATT that it get's a chance to roll an effect on the IFT against said vehicle, the vehicle will lose Concealment regardless of the result. Just getting hit is enough to strip the concealment. -- jim
 

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What about an ordnance hit using the ITT? Per C3.32, AFV without exposed PRC are immune to damage from ITT hits, but in this case we're not looking at damage, only to being hit... So a hit on the ITT (maybe targeting possible HIP infantry) would also reveal a hidden AFV?
 

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What about an ordnance hit using the ITT? Per C3.32, AFV without exposed PRC are immune to damage from ITT hits, but in this case we're not looking at damage, only to being hit... So a hit on the ITT (maybe targeting possible HIP infantry) would also reveal a hidden AFV?
See Klas' response in post #8 above. Yes, a hit on the ITT is enough. -- jim
 

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Bill Mauldin cartoon: Willie and Joe's squad riding on a tank. The tank commander says "You gents relax. We got three inches of armor!"
 

esparver73

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How to interpret the part inside the parentheses in the rule:

A12.2:
"A concealed vehicle in the LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit (regardless of range) loses its concealment if hit on a To Hit Table, or by at least a “PTC” result vs its vulnerable PRC (or its corresponding DR, on the * Vehicle line or for OBA regardless of PRC vulnerability),.."

Does it mean that a PTC result by OBA vs a BU AFV without vulnerable PRC results in strip?
Does it mean that a DR result matching the * line of the IFT attack column vs a BU AFV without vulnerable PRC results in strip?
 

klasmalmstrom

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I think the reference to the * line is for attacking unarmored vehicles directly on the IFT.

But an OBA PTC strips Concealment on a PTC even without vulnerable PRC.

IIRC, there's an old official Q&A on this and the v2 text was updated to match it.
 

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A BU AFV (no PRC) is concealed in a woods hex.
If HE fire into this hex results in a PTC, does the AFV lose concealment?

It looks like the question has been pretty well answered for a variety of cases. But did you mean to ask about a HE (High Explosive ) shot or Infantry FP?

In the initial question you have "HE", but then it seems the answer you were after was for IFP.

Seth
 

esparver73

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Yes, there's Q&A. Here it is:

A12.2 If a Location containing a concealed AFV
in LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit is
subjected to a non-ordnance attack that results in
at least a PTC on the IFT, does the AFV lose its
"?"?
A. Only if the attack is OBA, and/or if the AFV is
CE. [Gen26.5; An95w; An96; Mw]

A12.2 How does an armored vehicle in
concealment terrain lose "?" by being fired on by
a MMC using Inherent FP?
A. It doesn't; a BU CT AFV is unaffected by
Small Arms fire, including "?" loss. A PTC or
better vs. vulnerable PRC or dummies causes "?"-
loss if in LOS. [Compil4]
 

jimfer

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I have a devil's advocate question. A concealed BU Tiger tank is in a woods hex, a squad 6 hexes away with a MMG fires a to hit against the Tiger and scores a hit. Does the Tiger lose concealment? What if it was a Pz IVH? Just thinking.....
 
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