AFV combat in ASL

[JG53_Jaguar]

You know, I have been thinking about the ASL rules regarding AFV. It would be cool if we could have a bit more variety when an AFV gets hit. Example track hit, vehicle can't move but MA and support mgs are still working fine. Hull penetration but no serious damage...AFV still works. Turret Hit, no serious penetration AFV still works. MA gun hit...that kind of stuff, to make it a bit more interesting and deeper. Any chance anyone has any home made rules on this subject ? I'm not trying to say that there is something wrong with AFV rules but just it would be nice to have a bit more depth to it that's all.

 

[David Reinking]

You know, I have been thinking about the ASL rules regarding AFV. It would be cool if we could have a bit more variety when an AFV gets hit. Example track hit, vehicle can't move but MA and support mgs are still working fine. Hull penetration but no serious damage...AFV still works. Turret Hit, no serious penetration AFV still works. MA gun hit...that kind of stuff, to make it a bit more interesting and deeper. Any chance anyone has any home made rules on this subject ? I'm not trying to say that there is something wrong with AFV rules but just it would be nice to have a bit more depth to it that's all.

I believe some house rules have been put into effect. Take, for example, the PF hitting most vehicles. If it hits, you're likely a goner--the 12 TK roll being the exception. However, one house rule of which I am aware made an 11 TK roll not destroy the tank. If it were a hull hit, the tank was Immobilized. If it were a turret hit, then the MA was knocked out (kinda like Telly Savalas' tank in everyone's favorite, "Battle of the Bulge").

The problem with the above is the additional chrome that some/many would not want to keep track of.

 

[daveramsey]

Current Variety: Immobilised, shocked, stunned, possibly shocked, bogged, mired, MA malf, MA broke, Coax/Bow/AA MG malf/broke, Out of smoke, out of APCR...

Is there really that much chrome missing? Especially when scenarios can typically have 6 or AFVs on each side.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I thought about two possible results that ASL does not depict (which could be generated by a subsequent dr after an immobilisation or shock result, respectively) :
- One track destroyed : the vehicle may not leave its Location, but still can change its VCA (perhaps with more penalties than if it had both tracks ok)
- Stuck turret: the turret may not change its CA relative to the VCA, and the tank has to change VCA to change TCA.
But I find that ASL already gives players many possible results.
I would not fight for a modification of the present rules.

 

[asler]

That other approach might be to consider where do you end with the chrome. I remember a 70's miniature rule set called Tractics. It tracked each shot in so much detail (all by paper and dice rolls) that I don't think we ever played with more then 2 vehicles on a side. Now computer games like Combat Mission go (apparently) to that much detail inside the game engine, but even those games give you little more info on the screen then what placing a counter in ASL does - as a matter of fact - I know more about the status of a vehicle in ASL then CM.

Alot of what you asked for (as pointed out previously) is already abstractly represented by the various DR results. A gun malfunction could be considered a 'gun hit' in the earlier round - but the crew just realize it when they go to load/fire their next shot. A hull or turret penetration with no damage is already represented - a Shock/UK that results in the vehicle coming back in GO next turn - the crew knows their a penetration, looks around to see what the %^&*$ happened, and then realizes their still good to go.

Chris

 

[Pitman]

Current Variety: Immobilised, shocked, stunned, possibly shocked, bogged, mired, MA malf, MA broke, Coax/Bow/AA MG malf/broke, Out of smoke, out of APCR...

Is there really that much chrome missing? Especially when scenarios can typically have 6 or AFVs on each side.

half of what you list is not a combat result. I agree that AFV combat results in ASL are far more two dimensional than actual WWII AFV combat.

 

[Whizbang1963]

As I recall the original Tobruk took a lot of these things into effect as did the later MBT and IDF games from the Hill. Armor thickness, penetration, hit location. Awesome games but definitely required a time commitment to play.

Would like to get my hands on MBT and IDF again..I have an unpunched Tobruk..if I ever get to retire and have some time maybe I'll crack it open and fire it up again..

 

[jrv]

You know, I have been thinking about the ASL rules regarding AFV. It would be cool if we could have a bit more variety when an AFV gets hit. Example track hit, vehicle can't move but MA and support mgs are still working fine. Hull penetration but no serious damage...AFV still works. Turret Hit, no serious penetration AFV still works. MA gun hit...that kind of stuff, to make it a bit more interesting and deeper. Any chance anyone has any home made rules on this subject ? I'm not trying to say that there is something wrong with AFV rules but just it would be nice to have a bit more depth to it that's all.

When the Japanese on Peleliu launched an armored counterattack across the airfield, the American Shermans firing at the enemy tanks switched from AP to HE because the AP was just going in one side of the tank and coming out the other without causing any major damage. Try to find that in the rules ;-)

JR

 

[MrP]

I thought about two possible results that ASL does not depict (which could be generated by a subsequent dr after an immobilisation or shock result, respectively) :
- One track destroyed : the vehicle may not leave its Location, but still can change its VCA (perhaps with more penalties than if it had both tracks ok)
- Stuck turret: the turret may not change its CA relative to the VCA, and the tank has to change VCA to change TCA.
But I find that ASL already gives players many possible results.
I would not fight for a modification of the present rules.

I designed a scenario based on an account in Tank Riders in which the Russians have two T34/85s as replacements, one with a jammed turret and one with a man short - simulated by one requiring a DR<ML to change TCA and one with an inexperienced crew. Seemed to work pretty well......

 

[Treadhead]

I remember a 70's miniature rule set called Tractics.

Tractics! I played that before diving into SL. My buddy and I played with 1/76 and 1/72 models. He built American armor, and I built German armor. What a blast!

In those days, I was interested in having a sample model for each German AFV. Thus I had no duplicates. We would field armies containing an eclectic mix of vehicles, none of them duplicated. We dabbled with infantry a little bit, but we played it for the armor rules.

That was the first time a Chaffee took out one of my Panthers. The damn thing scooted so fast, my shots missed, he got behind me, scratch one Panther. I was so pissed!

It tracked each shot in so much detail...

I'm going by memory here (though I still have all the Tractics rules, charts, etc.), but I believe it used a concept called Collateral Damage.

If the shot did not penetrate (or did but without effect), you had to possibly also check for Collateral Damage. Depending on the hit location, the results could range from throwing one track, to disabling a MG, to jamming the turret. All the stuff mentioned.

It was a bit of a chore, at times. The fun factor outweighed the work required, for us anyway.

... I don't think we ever played with more then 2 vehicles on a side.

Wuss!

We routinely played with ten or more AFV, of all types as I mentioned. Complete with the painted styrofoam hills, trees, foliage. We would lay it all out on the floor and play on the floor. I have some photographs of one playing, the one where the Chaffee toasted my Panther, as it happens.

A hull or turret penetration with no damage is already represented - a Shock/UK that results in the vehicle coming back in GO next turn

Actually, a Shock/Unconfirmed Kill rerpresents a "hit which fails to penetrate armor..."

But, it could still abstractly represent a hit that breached without effect.


Bruce

 

[Treadhead]

Collateral Damage

Okay, how about this revision to C7.35.



C7.35 DUD/COLLATERAL DAMAGE: Any Original TK DR of 12 (regardless of ammunition or Target Type) may either result in a Dud or in Collateral Damage. On a subsequent dr of 1-5, the attack is a Dud and has no effect; a subsequent dr of 6 results in Collateral Damage.

C7.351 COLLATERAL DAMAGE TABLE When Collateral Damage occurs, make a subsequent dr. Cross-index the dr with the appropriate Aspect and Target Facing as determined by the hit location, and apply the results. Collateral Damage is applied immediately.


HULL

Front
1-2 = MA Disabled (if applicable) else Thrown Track
3-5 = BMG Disabled (if applicable) else Thrown Track
6 = Thrown Track

Side
1 = MA Disabled (if applicable) else Thrown Track
2-5 = Thrown Track
6 = Engine Disabled

Rear
1-4 = Engine Disabled
5-6 = Thrown Track


TURRET

Front
1 = MA Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
2-3 = CMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
4 = AAMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
5-6 = Turret Jammed

Side
1 = MA Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
2 = CMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
3 = AAMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
4-6 = Turret Jammed

Rear
1 = AAMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
2-6 = Turret Jammed


Thrown Track: Vehicle must remain in current hex. The Case A drm for VCA is +4 for each hexspine changed.

Engine Disabled: The vehicle is immobilized, but an Immobilization TC is not required for the Collateral Damage result (only).

Turret Jammed: The TCA remains permanently fixed; TCA must remain in its relationship to the VCA, and TCA may not be changed for the duration of the scenario.


There you go. Something to work with.

Regards,
Bruce

 

[Honza]

Thats quite an inventive idea Bruce.

 

[Tork]

When the Japanese on Peleliu launched an armored counterattack across the airfield, the American Shermans firing at the enemy tanks switched from AP to HE because the AP was just going in one side of the tank and coming out the other without causing any major damage. Try to find that in the rules ;-)

JR

The first Marine tankers in Korea with M26 Pershings, facing up against T34/85s, stopped using APCR for the same reason.

 

[JG53_Jaguar]

Re: Collateral Damage

Okay, how about this revision to C7.35.



C7.35 DUD/COLLATERAL DAMAGE: Any Original TK DR of 12 (regardless of ammunition or Target Type) may either result in a Dud or in Collateral Damage. On a subsequent dr of 1-5, the attack is a Dud and has no effect; a subsequent dr of 6 results in Collateral Damage.

C7.351 COLLATERAL DAMAGE TABLE When Collateral Damage occurs, make a subsequent dr. Cross-index the dr with the appropriate Aspect and Target Facing as determined by the hit location, and apply the results. Collateral Damage is applied immediately.


HULL

Front
1-2 = MA Disabled (if applicable) else Thrown Track
3-5 = BMG Disabled (if applicable) else Thrown Track
6 = Thrown Track

Side
1 = MA Disabled (if applicable) else Thrown Track
2-5 = Thrown Track
6 = Engine Disabled

Rear
1-4 = Engine Disabled
5-6 = Thrown Track


TURRET

Front
1 = MA Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
2-3 = CMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
4 = AAMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
5-6 = Turret Jammed

Side
1 = MA Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
2 = CMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
3 = AAMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
4-6 = Turret Jammed

Rear
1 = AAMG Disabled (if applicable) else Turret Jammed
2-6 = Turret Jammed


Thrown Track: Vehicle must remain in current hex. The Case A drm for VCA is +4 for each hexspine changed.

Engine Disabled: The vehicle is immobilized, but an Immobilization TC is not required for the Collateral Damage result (only).

Turret Jammed: The TCA remains permanently fixed; TCA must remain in its relationship to the VCA, and TCA may not be changed for the duration of the scenario.


There you go. Something to work with.

Regards,
Bruce

That's what I have been looking for!!! I'm gonna print this and check it out, thanks a lot

 

[Doktor Spell]

When the Japanese on Peleliu launched an armored counterattack across the airfield, the American Shermans firing at the enemy tanks switched from AP to HE because the AP was just going in one side of the tank and coming out the other without causing any major damage. Try to find that in the rules ;-)

JR

No, No, JR...you got it all wrong. Those Americans only needed to resort to harsh language against those Jap tanks. Why waste HE rounds when a few well chosen words would have sent those crews scurrying right outta those paper AFVs.......

 

[Gunner Scott]

A few questions; so what are the effects of it is an engine hit? Less movement, no movement? When you say thrown track, I'm sure you mean immobilized right?


Scott

 

[JG53_Jaguar]

A few questions; so what are the effects of it is an engine hit? Less movement, no movement? When you say thrown track, I'm sure you mean immobilized right?


Scott

I'm assuming engine hit = no movement.

 

[Treadhead]

A few questions; so what are the effects of it is an engine hit? Less movement, no movement? When you say thrown track, I'm sure you mean immobilized right?

I defined these in the first post.

Thrown Track: Vehicle must remain in current hex. The Case A drm for VCA is +4 for each hexspine changed.

Note that it must remain in its current hex. That's about the same as saying Immobilized, though an Immobile AFV cannot change VCA, while one with a Thrown Track may.

Engine Disabled: The vehicle is immobilized, but an Immobilization TC is not required for the Collateral Damage result (only).

The vehicle is Immobilized per rule; however, there is no Immobilization TC for the Engine Disabled Collateral Damage result.

Turret Jammed: The TCA remains permanently fixed; TCA must remain in its relationship to the VCA, and TCA may not be changed for the duration of the scenario.

Pretty self-explanatory. This would have to be modified to some other result for Upper Superstructure hits on NT vehicles.


It's definitely extra chrome, but probably rarely called upon. Would be an interesting House Rule, perhaps.

Bruce

 

[Eagle4ty]

:stirthepot: Back in my SL days had an additional house rule about the dreaded 12's for MA. A subsequent dr of 1-4=Gun out of carriage (Malf); 5 or 6 the type of ammo being fired (normally AP/HE) was depleted. Kind of like a depletion # for basic ammo load. Can't remember what is was when firing special ammo-probably a usual "Malf" result.

All of this is pretty interesting, but in game terms usually has a limited impact unless playing a small scenario. Would definately try it though! The varied results looks like fun.:hurray:

 

[BruceC]

I like the turret jammed result, it seems that happened often enough to have been included in the game system somehow...

B-