AFV Combat analysis [in spanglish]

[mgmasl]

I seem.to recall a footnote - but cannot find it - which explained that the link between ROF and a low roll was due to the fact that the firer, having had a quick good result against his target had time to engage other targets or press on his attack against the initial target.
As wary as I am about "simulation of reality" explanations, I find the reasoning rather good.

A crew needing 10 or less to hit is supposed to have a fantastic target view, and it surely need few time to pointing well enough for hit, see result and fire again. On the other hand, a crew needing 3 or less to hit is supposed to have a very complicated shot, so needing more time to have a real option to impact.

This footnote is only valid when everygun is firing needing the same probability to HIT, but not at all if comparing shots with different probabilitys of impact on enemy targets.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I seem.to recall a footnote - but cannot find it - which explained that the link between ROF and a low roll was due to the fact that the firer, having had a quick good result against his target had time to engage other targets or press on his attack against the initial target.
As wary as I am about "simulation of reality" explanations, I find the reasoning rather good.

From Chapter C:

6. 2.24 ROF: If the crew hits the target with its first shell, it has saved itself time which can be used to select and engage another target. On the other hand, if the crew misses the same target many times or by a wide margin, it may not even hit its initial target within that time frame, let alone engage other targets. This accuracy/time factor is abstractly represented by the colored dr of the To Hit Resolution DR

 

[bendizoid]

It’s also easier to deliberately immobilize, odds are you either Hull hit or ROF for another try.
I’m a fan of the ROF dice.

 

[Yuri0352]

the good efffect on the game of the Special Ammo Pleva variant

Could someone explain the Pleva Special Ammo rule? First I've heard of it, sounds interesting and I might give it a try.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Without variants if the defender HITs the first AFV moving to exit with 3 or less, AUTOMATICALLY gets a new shot option and it has 1 in 3 option of getting CH. Of course, with Special AMMO. If firing againts the 2nd moving vehicle and it rolls again a 3 or less, it´s again automatically rewarded with a new shot, special ammo and has a higher probability of obtaining a CH.

There is no possibility of HIT with 3 or less without getting ROF and a CH in once of every 3 hits, or without special ammo #4. Or you hit, ROF, Special AMMO and 1 o 3 CHs or just nothing..

Just a point of order: The number of CH's does not change just because you use a 3rd die ROF. A CH only occurs on a 1,1 and that happens only 1 in 36. If my Final TH# is a 3 as in your example, your ROF die does not change the fact that 1 in 3 hits (1,1; 1,2; 2:1 are the only possible hit combinations with or without the ROF die) will be a CH. That does not change. -- jim

 

[bendizoid]

Just a point of order: The number of CH's does not change just because you use a 3rd die ROF. A CH only occurs on a 1,1 and that happens only 1 in 36. If my Final TH# is a 3 as in your example, your ROF die does not change the fact that 1 in 3 hits (1,1; 1,2; 2:1 are the only possible hit combinations with or without the ROF die) will be a CH. That does not change. -- jim

Yes, but it makes it twice as hard to get two in a row with a ROF 3 weapon, even more for 1 or 2 ROF weapons. I like it because it kinda takes half the ‘luck’ and puts it on the ‘bad luck’ side kinda smoothing out the bell curve very nicely. Ultimately it makes the game less ‘lucky/unlucky’ hence slightly more skill.

 

[mgmasl]

To Jim..
No.. but 1 every 3 hits if rolling needing 3 or less to hit are CH.. when your opponent needs 3 to hit your AFV you know any hit has a greater increment of being a CH than a normal hit.
Idea is a CH if getting a hit, with same probability once the hit is obtained, that is what the footnotes about CH says.. it doesn’t say anything like “difficult to hit vehicles were more easily impacted at Critical areas when impacted”.
In ASL the most difficult to hit a vehicle the most option that this HIT will be a CH.. just the opposite that is ruled for ITT CHs. Using ITT, this good effect is obtained by using a new dr.. Why not the same in VTT/ATT? No idea..

 

[mgmasl]

No, but it makes it twice as hard to get two in a row with a ROF 3 weapon, even more for 1 or 2 ROF weapons. I like it because it kinda takes half the ‘luck’ and puts it on the ‘bad luck’ side kinda smoothing out the bell curve very nicely. Ultimately it makes the game less ‘lucky/unlucky’ hence slightly more skill.

Absolutely agree

 

[bendizoid]

It does however reduce raw FP by about 0.7% for a uncowerable ROF 3 HMG. This is the instance where a 12 is rolled and a good ROF dice is cancelled. There is about 1.4% reduction of raw FP for a B11, ROF 2 weapon.
Raw FP~ Lim [ (1/x)+(1/x^2)+(1/x^3)...]=1/(x-1) etc... I think it’s x=6/ROF, a 3 ROF has its basic FP doubled for its raw FP, a 2 ROF adds 50%. So a 6 FP HMG is 12 raw FP with 6 factors reduced by 1/36 chance to break divided by the inverse chance of not rolling ROF (1/50%=2)so basically 1/72 reduction in raw firepower on half the equation, since it’s only on half the equation divide again by 2 for 1/144= 0.69~ 0.7% reduction of raw firepower for a uncowerable ROF 3 weapon when a ROF dice is used. Cheap dirty math but it’s close enough.

Lol, ‘uncowerable’

 

[Sparafucil3]

Yes, but it makes it twice as hard to get two in a row with a ROF 3 weapon, even more for 1 or 2 ROF weapons. I like it because it kinda takes half the ‘luck’ and puts it on the ‘bad luck’ side kinda smoothing out the bell curve very nicely. Ultimately it makes the game less ‘lucky/unlucky’ hence slightly more skill.

This is wrong. If it isn't, then it patently changes the game. What it does do is divorce the TH/IFT DR from ROF determination. I will still get ROF at the same rate. Assuming it is randomly generated, I should get a second chance to roll a 3 as often with three dice as I do with two. All it does is make you feel better because you separated out the game mechanic.

The idea that you check for special ammo separately is a different beast and I chose to remain focused on the 3rd die ROF. -- jim

 

[Mister T]

It does however reduce raw FP by about 0.7% for a uncowerable ROF 3 HMG. This is the instance where a 12 is rolled and a good ROF dice is cancelled. There is about 1.4% reduction of raw FP for a B11, ROF 2 weapon.
Lim [ (1/x)+(1/x^2)+(1/x^3)...]=1/(x-1) etc...

Lol, ‘uncowerable’

This is a very small price to pay for a more even (and hence preferable) stream of bullets. Thanks for having done the maths.

 

[Sparafucil3]

No.. but 1 every 3 hits if rolling needing 3 or less to hit are CH.. when your opponent needs 3 to hit your AFV you know any hit has a greater increment of being a CH than a normal hit.

Rolling 3 dice does not change this. I said that up stream. The frequency of a CH is 1/36 (VTT). If the Final TH is 7, the frequency of a CH is 1/36. If the Final TH is a 3, the frequency of a CH is 1/36. Just because a CH happens 1 in 3 when it's a 3 TH and 1 in 21 when it's a 7 TH doesn't change the fact that the frequency of CH is 1/36. If what you want to do is change the fact that CH's happen "more often" on a 3TH (1 in 3 times vs 1 in 21 for example), moving ROF to a 3rd die isn't going to change that. You're still going to get a CH 1 in 3 times if the final TH is a 3. To "fix" that, you would need to make a whole new mechanism to first secure the hit, then determine whether it was a normal hit or a CH, and finally make a roll to determine if the vehicle was destroyed. This would be similar to rolling a 1,1 on ITT when the final TH DR >= 1/2 the Final TH number.

Idea is a CH if getting a hit, with same probability once the hit is obtained, that is what the footnotes about CH says.. it doesn’t say anything like “difficult to hit vehicles were more easily impacted at Critical areas when impacted”.
In ASL the most difficult to hit a vehicle the most option that this HIT will be a CH.. just the opposite that is ruled for ITT CHs. Using ITT, this good effect is obtained by using a new dr.. Why not the same in VTT/ATT? No idea..

Your third ROF die does not address the issue you're trying to solve then. -- jim

 

[Sparafucil3]

It does however reduce raw FP by about 0.7% for a uncowerable ROF 3 HMG. This is the instance where a 12 is rolled and a good ROF dice is cancelled. There is about 1.4% reduction of raw FP for a B11, ROF 2 weapon.
Raw FP~ Lim [ (1/x)+(1/x^2)+(1/x^3)...]=1/(x-1) where x=6/ROF etc...

Lol, ‘uncowerable’

This is good analysis and makes me like it even less as the DEFENDER. It places it solidly in the IIFT category for me. Thanks for the math. -- jim

 

[bendizoid]

This is wrong. If it isn't, then it patently changes the game. What it does do is divorce the TH/IFT DR from ROF determination. I will still get ROF at the same rate. Assuming it is randomly generated, I should get a second chance to roll a 3 as often with three dice as I do with two. All it does is make you feel better because you separated out the game mechanic.

The idea that you check for special ammo separately is a different beast and I chose to remain focused on the 3rd die ROF. -- jim

Yes, but to get rate of fire for a 2 ROF the minimum roll is a ‘8’ and the average is a 5 making it double nasty, a ROF 3 weapon has a 9 minimum and a average of 6. It’s compounding cruelty. It’s not for everybody that’s for sure.

This is a very small price to pay for a more even (and hence preferable) stream of bullets. Thanks for having done the maths.

Yeah I’ve seen too many crazy streaks and ROF tears that kinda ruined fun scenarios, both by me and against, 12 ROF, 15 ROF etc. kinda like the last scene in The Wild Bunch before they all get killed in slo-mo. I don’t mind a little luck but after 10 ROFs and I’m feeling like apologizing for the gun that won’t stop.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Yes, but to get rate of fire for a 2 ROF the minimum roll is a ‘8’ and the average is a 5 making it double nasty, a ROF 3 weapon has a 9 minimum and a average of 6. It’s compounding cruelty. It’s not for everybody that’s for sure.

I have been on the receiving end. I have been on the delivering end. It isn't any fun either way IMO. If all things are equal as people suggest, your method won't change this. You'll just feel better about it because somehow you've convinced yourself separating it out is better. If it isn't the same, then it's not the same game and it has to affect balance and it is even more in the camp of the IIFT than it was before. -- jim

 

[bendizoid]

It’s not just the good luck side because now there is also a better chance to whiff an attack and get a second chance. It conveniently cuts both ways for both players. I usually like it for playtests and offer in tournaments to use the IIFT if the ROF dice is also used. I’m more than happy to play without a ROF dice, it’s just something I like that isn’t for everybody. This is what I’m trying to avoid:

 

[bendizoid]

This is my special ammo rule: All weapons start with the ability to fire any special ammo and the TH DR < the special ammo# determines if that special ammo is further retained. This gives you at least one shot of any particular ammo type, no double DR BS, better make it count.

 

[TopT]

This is my special ammo rule: All weapons start with the ability to fire any special ammo and the TH DR < the special ammo# determines if that special ammo is further retained. This gives you at least one shot of any particular ammo type, no double DR BS, better make it count.

I like that rule

 

[bendizoid]

I like that rule

Me to, especially getting rid of the two-timing double DR shananagins thing.

 

[mgmasl]

Your third ROF die does not address the issue you're trying to solve then. -- jim

This comment is about the need of a CH variant..
ITT has a fantastic CH rule with a CH probability greater for good to hit numbers. Ie, if easyer to hit easyer to get a CH. Unfortunately, this same axioma is not valid for VTT or ATT, and real consequence in game results is less favourable hits get proportionally higher number of CHs than normal shot, because CH is based on just rolling to HIT and not on the options to get a HIT in each DR, as it´s ruled for ITT.

I like this rule.. I admit doesn´t increment the number of DRs and It´s a fantastic to have always at least one Special Ammo shot.
Anyway, as usual with ASL, enemy knows perfectly when your gun has fired the special ammo last shot and, thinking about a posible change I would like something similar to PF rules, where Special Ammo are always available. I like Pleva rule because I always used this way -but with normal numbers-, thinking it was the ruled way to play.