AFV changing VCA in same hex after starting for 1 MP.

VonHutier

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2021
Messages
955
Reaction score
748
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Regarding the above - since the AFV has not entered another hex during its movement phase, only started for 1, changed its VCA for 2 etc it is not considered moving and thus does not qualify for the +2 TH should an enemy AFV/Ordnance make a TH roll, correct?

I ask because this came up in a recent game against my regular oppo and he claimed it qualified for said firer based TH modification.

I claimed it didn't...

TIA
 

PresterJohn

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
1,763
Reaction score
1,186
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
C6.1 CASE J; MOVING/MOTION VEHICULAR TARGET: Ordnance firing at a Dashing target (A4.63), or at a vehicle which has entered a new hex or used VBM (D2.3) during that Player Turn, or is/was in Motion status during that Player Turn, must add the +2 DRM of Case J to its To Hit DR.

and

C.8 last sentence:
Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure. Expenditure of MP for other purposes (such as loading/unloading, Bog Removal attempts, or VCA changes) do not by themselves qualify a vehicle as a moving target although they too allow Defensive First Fire shots vs it.
 

VonHutier

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2021
Messages
955
Reaction score
748
Country
llUnited Kingdom
C6.1 CASE J; MOVING/MOTION VEHICULAR TARGET: Ordnance firing at a Dashing target (A4.63), or at a vehicle which has entered a new hex or used VBM (D2.3) during that Player Turn, or is/was in Motion status during that Player Turn, must add the +2 DRM of Case J to its To Hit DR.

and

C.8 last sentence:
Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure. Expenditure of MP for other purposes (such as loading/unloading, Bog Removal attempts, or VCA changes) do not by themselves qualify a vehicle as a moving target although they too allow Defensive First Fire shots vs it.
If I'm reading this correctly - any vehicle in any sort of motion gets the +2 ?

So if a vehicle starts for 1, any TH receives the +2 despite it still being in the hex it started in ?
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,761
Reaction score
3,861
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
No, you need to differ moving and non stopped. To be moving you have to either start in motion or enter a new hex.
To be non stopped (for CC purposes) it is enough to have spent a start MP and not a stop MP. No need to enter a new hex.
 

PresterJohn

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
1,763
Reaction score
1,186
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
Yep, the changing of covered arc is specifically mentioned as not qualifying the vehicle as a moving target, so no +2, as you originally correctly claimed.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,761
Reaction score
3,861
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
My AFV is in a hex with an enemy unit stopped holding them in melee.
I fire a sad.
I am not moving nor in motion. The enemy squad is in melee and can do nothing.
I spend a start MP. The enemy squad is no longer in melee and can reaction fire. This is penalised by the +2 for CC versus a motion non-stopped vehicle.
Any ordnance shooting is not shooting at a moving target as I have yet to enter a new hex.
I enter a new hex adjacent to another squad.
I am now moving non-stopped. Ordnance gets the +2 to hit and CC gets +2 as well.

I stop there. Ordnance still gets +2 for moving.
CC no longer gets +2 as I am stopped. Moving stopped.
 

PresterJohn

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
1,763
Reaction score
1,186
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
Also in the rules, in your turn, the vehicle counter that you are currently "doing stuff with" is called the "moving vehicle", even when it is not yet "moving" as per C6.1 so the rules may sound like double speak in that respect.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
15,464
Reaction score
12,267
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
No, you need to differ moving and non stopped. To be moving you have to either start in motion or enter a new hex.
To be non stopped (for CC purposes) it is enough to have spent a start MP and not a stop MP. No need to enter a new hex.
This might also affect maintaining Acquisition.

von Marwitz
 

clubby

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
3,698
Reaction score
1,681
Location
CA
Country
llUnited States
If I'm reading this correctly - any vehicle in any sort of motion gets the +2 ?

So if a vehicle starts for 1, any TH receives the +2 despite it still being in the hex it started in ?
No, if the vehicle is marked in motion from the last turn, they get that. If you only turn or start and change CA, no.
 

VonHutier

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2021
Messages
955
Reaction score
748
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Guys, I think I've got it. I think I was right all along. Thanks to you all who responded..
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
15,464
Reaction score
12,267
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Acq is lost as soon as you start.
I don't believe that this is the case:

"C6.5 CASE N; ACQUIRED TARGET: ... The target remains acquired until the Gun/manning-Infantry that placed it leaves its present Location [EXC: Gyrostabilizer; 6.55]—or the Gun changes its CA without firing on its already-acquired target during the current phaseor the Gun (or its CMG unless in a separate turret) attacks (including in CC, or Interdicts) a different target—or the Gun malfunctions or fires SMOKE (6.56), canister or IFE—or its crew/manning-Infantry are eliminated or not in Good Order, or they no longer possess it, or they fire Inherent FP/SW or use Interdiction, or they (un)limber/dm it—or the target is no longer in their LOS after entering a new Location/vertex-(see 6.15) (although in this case the last in-LOS Location occupied by the target will remain acquired; 6.51)."

Merely spending a Start MP does not make you lose Acquisition. You need to leave your present Location, which means that you can even spend MP beyond the Start MP for certain purposes as long as you stay in your current Location.

Q&A:

"C6.5 & C6.55 - A non-gyrostabilizer vehicle with Acquisition goes into motion without leaving the location or changing CA. Provided the vehicle does not fire, is that Acquisition lost immediately? If no, can the vehicle change VCA if the Acquisition is from a turret mounted weapon that maintains the same CA and still retain its Acquisition? Would your answer be different if the weapon was bow mounted and the TCA was the one that changed?

A. Immediately. NA. No."


Per this Q&A, Acquistion is lost immedtiately when you go into motion. But under which circumstances is that the case?

"D2.4 MOTION STATUS: Any Mobile vehicle (including a boat or amphibian) which has used its entire printed MP allotment during its MPh, without expending a MP to Stop (2.13) or Delay (2.17) at the end of that MPh, is considered in Motion and covered with a Motion counter. A vehicle may end its MPh in Motion without expending all of its MP only if it has insufficient MP remaining to enter the next hex it wishes to enter. A Motion vehicle (i.e., one covered by a Motion counter) receives no extra MP, but at the start of its MPh it does not have to pay the one MP Starting cost (2.12) and is considered a moving target during that MPh even prior to entry of a new hex. A vehicle's Motion counter is immediately removed when it starts movement in its next MPh or if the vehicle becomes Immobile. For a vehicle to not end its MPh in Motion status, it must always have one extra MP (beyond the total cost of the final hex entered) to expend as its Stopping MP (even if it means chancing an ESB DR to do so). A Motion tracked vehicle may use ESB but does not have to. A vehicle is marked with a Motion counter only before or after its MPh, not during it. A vehicle (and its PRC) which starts its Player Turn in Motion may not Prep Fire and must expend at least one MP (even if just to stop) during its MPh. A vehicle may not start a scenario set up onboard in Motion."


So you have to be covererd by a Motion counter which cannot be placed during the MPh.


"D2.12 STARTING: A vehicle not under a Motion counter must expend one MP to start movement before entering a new hex or changing its VCA during the MPh. Unless Reverse Movement (2.2) is declared, forward movement is assumed. The Starting MP expenditure is considered to take place in the currently occupied hex (thereby making it subject to Defensive First Fire in that hex although not as a moving target; C.8). A Starting MP expenditure is not necessary if entering from offboard because such units are assumed to have set up in Motion (A2.52).

"C.8 MOVING VEHICULAR TARGET: A vehicle is considered a moving target for To Hit/Effects purposes only if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, or used VBM (D2.3), or began its MPh in Motion (D2.4), or is currently in Motion. A Stopped (D2.13) vehicle is also treated as moving if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, used VBM, or began its MPh in Motion. Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure. Expenditure of MP for other purposes (such as loading/unloading, Bog Removal attempts, or VCA changes) do not by themselves qualify a vehicle as a moving target although they too allow Defensive First Fire shots vs it.


To be in Motion (which leads to loss of Acquisition unless Gyrostabilized), you have to be considered a moving target. However, spending a Start MP and some other MP expenditures do not by themselves qualify a vehicle as a Moving Target (and thus also do not lead to a loss of Acquisition). If starting the MPh Stopped, you are not covered by a Motion Counter, thus not in Motion. As long as the other reasons for losing Acquistion listed in C6.5 do not apply, you keep your Acquisition.

von Marwitz
 
Last edited:

clubby

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
3,698
Reaction score
1,681
Location
CA
Country
llUnited States
I believe Von Marwitz is correct, you lose when you move if you're not gyrostabilized.
 
Top