AFV and Wall Advantage.

[Tom Nelson]

Last Sunday, we played a scenario where my "Slugger" was behind a wall when a Jag Tiger arrived on the other side of the wall. My opponent claimed that since I had not placed a wall advantage on my "Slugger" this AFV was not hull down. Now did both of AFV have hull down status? I had never even considered placing a wall advantage on an AFV. Tom

 

[jrv]

Last Sunday, we played a scenario where my "Slugger" was behind a wall when a Jag Tiger arrived on the other side of the wall. My opponent claimed that since I had not placed a wall advantage on my "Slugger" this AFV was not hull down. Now did both of AFV have hull down status? I had never even considered placing a wall advantage on an AFV.

Mandatory WA probably applied, and it applies to vehicles as well as Infantry. If so, there was no necessity to place a WA counter until an enemy unit became adjacent. If there was in-hex TEM, things become more complicated.

JR

 

[Vinnie]

If there was positive in hex ten then you could not have claimed WA.

 

[Brian W]

To point it out to your opponent, have him see B9.323 Mandatory WA, especially the last sentence:

"A "Wall Advan" counter is not necessary in this case, unless there is an enemy unit sharing one or more of the unit's wall/hedge hexsides."

 

[Tom Nelson]

Thanks for your responses. There was no other terrain in the hex occupied by the "Slugger." There was another question: for the Jag Tiger had become immobilized by an attempt to exceed its movement allowance. My look at the rules concerning such an event indicates that the AFV that suffers that penalty remains in the hex where it tried to exceed its MF rather than the hex which it was attempting to enter. Is this correct? Tom

 

[sfcmikej]

That is correct Tom. See the last sentence of D2.5:

If the FInal ESB DR is>= 12, the vehicle is immobilized in/on its current hex/hexside (although it is still considered a moving target for the rest of that MPh/DFPh if it had entered a new hex in that MPh prior to attempting ESB or began its MPh in Motion).

Mike

 

[Vinnie]

It is stuck where it was.

Any Final ESB DR ≤ 11 is successful and gains the declared MP amount, which can be used in one or more hexes. If the Final ESB DR is ≥ 12, the vehicle is immobilized in/on its current hex/hexside (although it is still considered a moving target for the rest of that MPh/DFPh if it had entered a new hex in that MPh prior to attempting ESB or began its MPh in Motion).

But note, you can roll for ESB at any point of your move so sometimes it is worth doing so early in order to be in a decent place if you do break down.

 

[Brian W]

One of the interesting things about ESB is that you can ESB for fractions of a MP, and the fraction doesn't add to the ESB DR as they are rounded down, unless your AFV has a Red MP number.

Additionally, units in a platoon cannot use ESB. Lost a game once for being one hex short and unable to ESB that one extra MP needed. It was, however, a God awful scenario.

 

[Fred Ingram]

It is stuck where it was.

Any Final ESB DR ≤ 11 is successful and gains the declared MP amount, which can be used in one or more hexes. If the Final ESB DR is ≥ 12, the vehicle is immobilized in/on its current hex/hexside (although it is still considered a moving target for the rest of that MPh/DFPh if it had entered a new hex in that MPh prior to attempting ESB or began its MPh in Motion).

But note, you can roll for ESB at any point of your move so sometimes it is worth doing so early in order to be in a decent place if you do break down.

So if you have to get that one extra MP to stop, enter the hex you want to get into and THEN announce the ESB attempt - one way or another - you will stop in the desired hex

 

[Vinnie]

And conversely, if you are in a decent position but need ESB to get to the ideal position, roll as you start as that way you will not break down in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Tom Nelson]

In a situation where there was wall in front of either woods or jungle, each of which has a TEM, how would the situation be different? Now I can understand that when an AFV has placed itself in a building that there could be no wall advantage, although I think that the AFV could still fire over the wall, but I would think at least with the AFV behind a wall in the woods, that it could have both wall advantage and hull down. Of course, I am probably incorrect. Tom

 

[Vinnie]

You are wrong. The AFV cannot have wall advantage over apthe wall but it could claim hull down status against a first without wall advantage.

 

[Wayne]

In a situation where there was wall in front of either woods or jungle, each of which has a TEM, how would the situation be different? Now I can understand that when an AFV has placed itself in a building that there could be no wall advantage,

Can't claim Wall Advantage if in a Building or Woods (B9.32), but (usually) may claim HD Status or Case Q (i.e., in-hex TEM). D4.2.

although I think that the AFV could still fire over the wall,

Bow-mounted weapons usually may not (unless they are Main Armaments). D4.223.

but I would think at least with the AFV behind a wall in the woods, that it could have both wall advantage and hull down. Of course, I am probably incorrect. Tom

Not at the same time, usually.

WRT a non-adjacent firer targeting a mobile AFV, the AFV owner might claim in-hex or Wall TEM (which includes HD status), on a shot-by-shot basis. (State the AFV choice after the attack is declared, but before the dice are rolled: B9.36). D4.2.

 

[jrv]

If the AFV were mobile (i.e., not Immobile), then it could claim/drop WA normally, even if in a Building hex. B9.322.

A unit may claim WA ... if it is ... not: a vehicle eligible to receive in-hex TEM of > 1 [EXC: Height Advantage (10.31)/Cactus Patch (14.7)/Olive Grove (14.8)]

A vehicle in a building or woods may not claim WA.

Exactly why there are EXC for Cactus Path & Olive Grove is not clear to me. But it would probably be a more interesting speculative discussion than another IFT/IIFT debate.

JR

 

[jrv]

You are wrong. The AFV cannot have wall advantage over apthe wall but it could claim hull down status against a first without wall advantage.

This will happen if the firer cannot claim WA itself. That happens when the firer is not adjacent to the wall. It might also happen that the firer is a unit that is adjacent but does not have WA, either because it can't claim it (enemy vehicle in > +1 (non-excluded) TEM; entrenched Infantry) or because it doesn't want to (infantry that is happy with its in-hex TEM).

JR

 

[Wayne]

A vehicle in a building or woods may not claim WA.

Thank you. What I meant (as opposed to what I mis-wrote): Can't claim Wall Advantage if in a Building or Woods (B9.32), but (usually) may claim HD Status or Case Q (i.e., in-hex TEM). D4.2.

Up-thread post corrected.

Exactly why there are EXC for Cactus Path & Olive Grove is not clear to me. But it would probably be a more interesting speculative discussion than another IFT/IIFT debate.

More interesting would be identifying when it makes better sense to claim Case Q in lieu of HD Status vs incoming VTT fire.

 

[Vinnie]

I think 5 is the magic number. If he needs a 5 with HD then the wall reduces it to a 3. The after has a 3 in 36, the former a 5 in 36.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think 5 is the magic number. If he needs a 5 with HD then the wall reduces it to a 3. The after has a 3 in 36, the former a 5 in 36.

Note though that one can't choose the TEM of a Wall, in liue of Hull Down status - only in-hex TEM.

 

[Tom Nelson]

Thanks for your collective replies. I will have to print this out and sit in front of my 2nd edition rulebook. Tom

 

[Wayne]

The choice of HD-Status vs Case Q (in-hex TEM) is usually a no-brainer (choose HD). But, sometimes, Case Q is better.

General procedure for making the better choice (Case Q or HD-Status, vs incoming VTT fire):

1. Determine the Original DR needed to hit you with Case Q.
2. Note the # of ways in 36 that the dice would secure a hit.
3. Determine the Original DR needed to hit you without Case Q (i.e., HD selected).
4. Note the # of ways in 36 that CD would be < the WD (i.e., turret hit secured).

Make Case Q or HD selection according to which gives the fewer number of ways to hit.

In case of an equal number of ways, select Case Q if you have weaker turret armor (and hope for a hull hit).

[FONT=courier new]Original       Ways in    Ways <=   Claim Q or HD (H)
DR Needed       36 to     that DR   when Case Q is...
TH w/Case Q    roll <=    CD is <
                that #    the WD     +1  +2  +3  +4

   10+                                H   H   H   H
    9             30       13         H   H   H   H
    8             26       11         [FONT=courier new]H   H   H   H
    7             21        9         [FONT=courier new]H   H   H   H
    6             15        6         [FONT=courier new]H   H   H   H
    5             10        4         H   H   Q   Q
    4              6        2         H   =   Q   Q
    3              3        1         H   Q   Q   Q
    2              1        0         =   Q   Q   Q[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]

EX #1:

You've set up in a Stone Building on a Hill Crest and successfully achieved pre-game HD Status there.

If the incoming shot needs an Original 5 to hit you (in Stone), it has
​

• 
  [*=1]10 ways in 36 to hit vs Stone, as opposed to
  [*=1]11 ways to secure a turret hit (on an Original DR of 8) vs HD Status.

So, choose Case Q (Stone TEM).
​

EX #2:

You've set up in a Wooden Building on a Hill Crest and successfully achieved pre-game HD Status there.

If the incoming shot needs an Original 5 to hit you (in Wooden), it has
​

• 
  [*=1]10 ways in 36 to hit vs Wooden, as opposed to
  [*=1]9 ways to secure a turret hit (on an Original DR of 7) vs HD Status.

So, choose HD Status.
​

Note that you are allowed to change your in-hex-TEM vs HD-Status selection on a shot-by-shot basis.

EX #3:

You've set up in a Wooden Building on a Hill Crest and successfully achieved pre-game HD Status there.

An incoming shot needs an Original 3 to hit you (in Wooden), it has​

• 
  [*=1]3 ways in 36 to hit vs Wooden, as opposed to
  [*=1]4 ways to secure a turret hit (on an Original DR of 5) vs HD Status.

So, choose Case Q (Wooden TEM).
​

Shooter misses, secures a -1 Acquisition, maintains ROF, and repeats the shot.

The incoming shot now needs an Original 4 to hit you (in Wooden) and now has​

• 
  [*=1]6 ways in 36 to hit vs Wooden, as opposed to
  [*=1]6 ways to secure a turret hit (on an Original DR of 6) vs HD Status.

Equal odds. So, if your turret armor is weaker than your hull armor, choose Case Q (Wooden TEM) and hope any hit is a hull hit.
​

Shooter misses, secures a -2 Acquisition, maintains ROF, and repeats the shot.

The incoming shot now needs an Original 5 to hit you (in Wooden) and now has
​

• 
  [*=1]10 ways in 36 to hit vs Wooden, as opposed to
  [*=1]9 ways to secure a turret hit (on an Original DR of 7) vs HD Status.

So, choose HD Status.​

All that said, here's hoping all shots on your AFVs are box cars.