Additional Concealment counters

jtreu

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My opponent the last time we played I think moved a concealed stack and then split it off. A12.11 says a new concealment counter is created for the new stack. Does that hold true if the original stack was all dummies?
 

Brian W

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Yes, the top counter is never a dummy, so you need to add a concealment counter to the top of the new dummy stack when it splits off from a stack.
 

Velocette

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Yes, the top counter is never a dummy, so you need to add a concealment counter to the top of the new dummy stack when it splits off from a stack.
Well I have played that wrong from the "get-go". Learn something new in ASL everyday. Thanks for info!

So if I have this right, a total dummy stack of 3 "?" [?, ? ,?] becomes two stacks of 5 "?", arranged as [?, ?, ?] and [?, ?].

Velo
 
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jrv

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Well I have played that wrong from the "get-go". Learn something new in ASL everyday. Thanks for info!

So if I have this right, a total dummy stack of 3 "?" [?, ? ,?] becomes two stacks of 5 "?", arranged as [?, ?, ?] and [?, ?].
No. The top counter is not a dummy counter. The top counter is a concealment counter. A dummy counter is a "?" that is beneath a concealment counter. If you have a stack of 3 x "?", you have two dummies and one concealment counter. The stack can split into two stacks, each of one dummy counter and one concealment counter. You can increase the number of concealment counters but you can never increase the number of dummy counters.

If you are given N "?" counters in your OB, you can use them either as dummies or as concealment counters. You can have at most N - 1 dummies, and then only if you set up all of the "?" in one stack.

JR
 

clubby

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Well I have played that wrong from the "get-go". Learn something new in ASL everyday. Thanks for info!

So if I have this right, a total dummy stack of 3 "?" [?, ? ,?] becomes two stacks of 5 "?", arranged as [?, ?, ?] and [?, ?].

Velo
No, a dummy stack of 3 is two dummies and one concealment counter. So they break up into two stacks of one dummy and one concealment counter. If you had a dummy stack of 4 (3 dummies and 1 ? counter), you could break that up into 3 stacks of 1 dummy and 1 ?.
 

Binchois

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I have always played that a dummy stack could split into separate dummy stacks with a new Concealment counter placed on top of the new stack. I'd hate to lose this option, but for discussion's sake, allow me to open a new can of worms...

The rule in question (A12.11) really doesn't state clearly whether dummy stacks can split:

A12.11 Multiple concealed units can combine into a concealed stack but must remove the top "?" counter from all but the original concealed (or Dummy) stack. A concealed stack under a single "?" can split into separate stacks; each new stack is topped with its own newly created "?".

Note that the first sentence is very clear, but the italicized sentence (the one at issue) has two problems:

First, as most people play it (myself included), a concealed stack can split into two stacks. However, each stack is not topped "with its own newly created '?'" Instead, one stack keeps the original "?", while the new stack gains a fresh "?".

Secondly (and more important to the OP), exactly what is the definition of a "concealed stack"? Can Dummies actually be concealed?

Prior to the start of a scenario, dummy stacks can not grow Concealment counters as can regular units (A12.12). To create a dummy, you need to place a OoB "?" on top of others. The RB doesn't say you can't place a single Dummy counter in a Location. We simply choose not to do pointless things!

As much as I don't like it, it may well be that dummy counters or a "dummy stack" cannot be "concealed." As for splitting a stack of Dummies, A12.11 contains another sentence:

A12.11...Dummy stacks can be created only during initial setup and among OB-designated "?" reinforcements during their initial turn of entry.​

Wouldn't splitting an existing stack be creating a new dummy stack? ...just wondering!


My apologies for provoking universal scorn...I am fond of Concealment tricks! But perhaps this is one of those places where we all choose to obey an unwritten law?
 

Philippe D.

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First, as most people play it (myself included), a concealed stack can split into two stacks. However, each stack is not topped "with its own newly created '?'" Instead, one stack keeps the original "?", while the new stack gains a fresh "?".


You are technically right here. Or, you could on principle remove the concealment counter from the original stack, split the remaining counters (the stack content, be it dummies or not), and top each resulting stack with its own, new, concealment counter.

Secondly (and more important to the OP), exactly what is the definition of a "concealed stack"? Can Dummies actually be concealed?
A concealed stack is the part of each stack that is below a concealment counter. Dummies are always concealed - the moment they lose concealment, they cease to exist.


Wouldn't splitting an existing stack be creating a new dummy stack? ...just wondering!
It would be creating a new dummy stack, just not new dummy counters.

But one other inconsistency is that (I may be wrong here, didn't check) the rulebook probably never says what a dummy stack is - it only says what a dummy counter is. I suppose most people would define a dummy stack as one whose entire content is made of dummy counters - but then, one might try to argue that any stack whose content contains at least one dummy counter, qualifies as a dummy stack.
 

Brian W

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I think of it like this: a stack with 5x? is a stack of four dummies and a concealment counter. If the stack splits up, you need to have four dummies after the split. This means adding at least one concealment counter to top the new stack and perhaps as many as three concealment counters (if each dummy creates a new stack). In the end, you have to have four dummies regardless of how many stacks you have.

The reverse is true. If I have two stacks of 3x?, each with two dummies and a concealment counter, I have four dummies. If the two stacks combine, I must remove a concealment counter and end with a stack of 5x?, which is four (again) dummies and one concealment counter. It's really simple, just hard to write instructions for it.
 
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