Acquisition Loss with CAFP

sfcmikej

US Army Retired
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
840
Reaction score
147
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
Gun has ack on a tank in a hex. There is an infantry squad there that the gun has never fired at so I don't think he is acquired. The tank and squad move into bypass using armored assault. The ack follows the tank as it has a LOS to the CAFP but not the center dot of the hex.. The infantry break armored assault and move to another hex but is out of the LOS of the gun, the tank moves to the next hexside in bypass of its hex. This is out of the LOS of the gun with the ack. Two questions:

Easy one first: If the hex the infantry moved into was in the guns LOS could the ack follow? I think not as the target was never engaged.

Second question: Where is the ack now? I couldn't see anything to justify leaving it on the hexside that the tank was in bypass of. There is no LOS to the actual hex so that does not make sense either. Maybe in the last hex where the gun had a LOS to the tank before it went into bypass?

No clue on this one

Mike
 

Pyth

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
212
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
Second question... I think you leave the acquisiton in that last hex you tracked into... you can't use the acq to shoot at targets in the obstacle (you have no LOS), but the acq still applies for units using bypass in LOS (exactly as you would have used it had the gun fired at the afv when it was there.)
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,568
Reaction score
622
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
Last sentence of C6.51:

"A ½" Acquired-counter DRM applies only to all Known units (/bridge) in that target Location, even if only one such unit therein was previously acquired."​
The AQ can follow either the Infantry or the vehicle as it is able/desires.
 

Pyth

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
212
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
Last sentence of C6.51:

"A ½" Acquired-counter DRM applies only to all Known units (/bridge) in that target Location, even if only one such unit therein was previously acquired."​
The AQ can follow either the Infantry or the vehicle as it is able/desires.
In the original question both units are leaving LOS...in my opinion in that case neither unit can be tracked, the acq must remain in the last acquired location. In the hypothetical the OP gave in the first case, the infantry remains in los, so the infantry can be tracked. In neither does the vehicle remain in LOS, unless I'm reading something wrong... I don't see how the vehicle could be tracked (it has left LOS... it is no longer Known) in either case. (and apologies I accidentally pressed send prior to finishing this post, so it went out at first in a partial form.)

Last sentence of C6.5 is quite clear: [acquistion is lost if...] .... the target is no longer in their LOS after entering a new Location/vertex-(see 6.15) (although in this case the last in-LOS Location occupied by the target will remain acquired; 6.51).
 
Last edited:

Binchois

Too many words...
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,568
Reaction score
622
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
In the original question both units are leaving LOS...in my opinion in that case neither unit can be tracked, the acq must remain in the last acquired location. In the hypothetical the OP gave in the first case, the infantry remains in los, so the infantry can be tracked. In neither does the vehicle remain in LOS, unless I'm reading something wrong... I don't see how the vehicle could be tracked (it has left LOS... it is no longer Known) in either case. (and apologies I accidentally pressed send prior to finishing this post, so it went out at first in a partial form.)

Last sentence of C6.5 is quite clear: [acquistion is lost if...] .... the target is no longer in their LOS after entering a new Location/vertex-(see 6.15) (although in this case the last in-LOS Location occupied by the target will remain acquired; 6.51).
Agreed! (I think...)

My answer above was only that an AQ scored on one unit in a Location could apply to every unit in that Location as per C6.51. And that the AQ can continue to track any unit as it continues to move as the Gun "is able/desires." But the word "able" was meant to cover a lot! Naturally, the ability to Acquire (or track with an AQ) depends upon LOS. For example, it could be scored against a vehicle at the CAFP, and then be used against Infantry which enter the Location in bypass (as per the OP). But an AQ does not affect a unit that can't be seen, nor can it follow a unit that moves out of LOS - especially if it was never acquired in the first place.

As for Acquiring a unit in bypass, you can do this even if the center dot of that hex is outside LOS - since LOS was validly traced to the hexside or the CAFP (as per A6.12). Meanwhile, bypass is not a separate Location within the hex. If the moving unit then leaves LOS, it either tracks the target, or "the ½" Acquired counter remains in the last Location that target occupied prior to leaving the acquirer's LOS", as per C6.51. If the hex-center is outside LOS, I would infer that the AQ can still remain because the AQ was scored validly, and there is no other rule which requires its removal. Again, that AQ has no value versus units outside of LOS, but would continue to be exerted versus another unit that enters that LOS in bypass. It could also be used to follow a unit that enters the Location into LOS (presumably in bypass) when it exits the Location still in the ACQuiring GUN's LOS.

As an aside, we recently had a related discussion in another thread, where Perry ruled that you could not use LOS to a bypass Location to place an AQ when there is no target present. THIS, because LOS could not be validly drawn as per A6.12:

Question :​
May a Gun use ATT vs. a hex which center dot is out of LOS, aiming an in LOS vertex, while no target is in the hex, so as to place a 5/8" acquisition marker?
Answer :​
No; none of the situations in A6.12 apply.​
....Perry​
MMP​
 
Last edited:

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,334
Reaction score
2,812
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
But note also that a unit moving through a Location with a 1/2" acquition during the MPh, can't "pick up" the acquition unless actually fired on.
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,568
Reaction score
622
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
But note also that a unit moving through a Location with a 1/2" acquition during the MPh, can't "pick up" the acquition unless actually fired on.
...in that Location.

Yes! Thanks. C6.52.
 

Pyth

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
212
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
But note also that a unit moving through a Location with a 1/2" acquition during the MPh, can't "pick up" the acquition unless actually fired on.
Sort of, but there's an important exception... ...that I'm not certain i understand!

Here's a Q&A:

C6.52

Must a unit have been the target of a Gun to be tracked by that gun's acquisition?
A. Yes, or it must have been part of a stack that was acquired.

For example, if a unit moves into a location with an ½" acquisition counter and subsequently advances out of the location without being fired upon by the gun that has the location acquired, can/must that advancing unit be tracked?

A. It cannot, unless by moving into the location it became part of a stack that was acquired.
So... when does something become "part of a stack"? Suppose a hex contains a unit X which was acquired by a Gun. X's Mph is over. Unit Y moves thru X's location. Is it part of the stack and can 'pick up' the acquisition'? There is no definition of stack in the index. Must a unit spend simultaneous MF/MP to be part of a stack... must it begin/end a phase in the same location? Or must it simply occupy the same location as another unit to constitute a stack? -- the phrasing of the Q&A "unless by moving into the location it became part of a stack that was acquired" suggests to me that all that is required is moving into the stack location. Help appreciated.
 

Pyth

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
212
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
So just passing thru during the Mph is not enough? You sound sure of this -- is stack defined somewhere?
 

Pyth

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
212
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
The phrasing of the Q&A is what makes me pause... otherwise Klas' stack makes sense... if the unit 'passing thru' the Acquired location is targetted (with or without Acquisition) since it is the Mph ...it and only it can be harmed... so how is it part of the stack? It makes sense... you can work backwards from that to say, a stack is units which can be affected by the same shot (though not necessarily the same DRM, or by all shots.).
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,334
Reaction score
2,812
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
So just passing thru during the Mph is not enough? You sound sure of this
Yes, C6.52.

6.52 BRACKETING: Acquisition DRM gained on one target/Target-Type can be transferred to another target/Target-Type when the firer announces a shot at-that-new-target/using-that-new-Target-Type, provided the target Location (or hex, if using the Area Target Type) remains the same during the transfer [EXC: Area Acquisition cannot be transferred to another Target Type and used vs a concealed unit (6.57), nor can a mortar transfer its Area Acquisition to another Target Type at all].
 

Pyth

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
212
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
It's sort ot defined in A2.9:
"...No enemy stack (i.e., all units/SW/Guns/entrenchment-counters in a given Location)..."
Is a unit passing thru another friendly unit's location during the Mph in the same location? If only one of them can be affected by fire?
 

Pyth

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
212
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
Yes, C6.52.

6.52 BRACKETING: Acquisition DRM gained on one target/Target-Type can be transferred to another target/Target-Type when the firer announces a shot at-that-new-target/using-that-new-Target-Type, provided the target Location (or hex, if using the Area Target Type) remains the same during the transfer [EXC: Area Acquisition cannot be transferred to another Target Type and used vs a concealed unit (6.57), nor can a mortar transfer its Area Acquisition to another Target Type at all].
Klas the Q&A to 6.52 I referenced earlier suggests that one does not have to fire at the new target to transfer acquistion if it has joined an acquired stack... prompting my wondering what the heck an ASL Stack is and when it is joined. (Am I just being dense? -- I'll come back and reread this tommorrow, sometimes that helps.)
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,774
Reaction score
5,868
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
It's sort ot defined in A2.9:
"...No enemy stack (i.e., all units/SW/Guns/entrenchment-counters in a given Location)..."
Yes but if that were the formal definition then a stack moving through another acquired stack would become part of an acquired stack. For the most part I think A2.9 is correct, but during the MPh (and probably other phases where things are moving about) the units currently moving seem to be separate in stack-i-ness from those not moving. The exact timing of joining of stacks during the MPh (and APh and RtPh) is not discussed. If, for instance a broken unit with an acquisition routs back to a location with a second broken unit, and later that second broken unit routs away, can the acquisition follow that second broken unit? Can an acquisition remain behind when a broken unit with acquisition routs through another unit?

JR
 
Last edited:

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,334
Reaction score
2,812
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
C6.5
During the MPh, squad A enters a Location occupied by the non-moving squad B, where it is fired on by a Gun using ITT. An
acquisition marker is placed. Squad A then continues to another Location that is also in LOS of the Gun. May the Defender choose
to leave the acquisition marker in the Location occupied by squad B?
A. No.

Same situation, but squad A ends its MPh in the Location of the shot. Later in the MPh, squad B moves to another Location in
LOS of the Gun. May the Defender choose to track squad B with the acquisition marker?
A. No.

During the DFPh, a Gun fires at a Location containing a Known enemy unit and a concealed enemy unit, using ITT. The result of
the shot is “no effect” on both. An acquisition marker is placed. A subsequent shot in the DFPh causes the concealed unit to lose
concealment. During the APh, the two units advance to different Locations, both in LOS of the Gun. May the Defender choose to
track the previously concealed unit with the acquisition marker?
A. Yes, when the unit lost concealment it became part of an acquired stack.

A squad and AFV are moving, using Armored Assault, and are fired on by a Gun using VTT. An acquisition marker is placed.
Subsequently, the squad and AFV move to different hexes, both in LOS of the Gun. May the Defender choose to track the squad
with the acquisition marker?
A. Yes since it was part of an acquired stack.

Same situation, but the Gun uses ITT instead of VTT on its shot. When the squad and AFV split, may the Defender choose to
track the AFV with the acquisition marker?
A. Yes since it was part of an acquired stack.
 

Pyth

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
212
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
Those Q&A are very helpful. They certainly clear up the issue around the Mph... (A unit 'passing thru' or even ending the Mph in the location...is NOT joining the stack)... JRV's Rout phase ponderings are not explicitly addressed but one would think it must be the same.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,774
Reaction score
5,868
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Some other issues that could be addressed. A unit is acquired (or becomes acquired) as part of a multi-location stack (human wave, platoon movement, IPM, etc). Are all units in the multi-location stack acquired? If not, and one unit that is acquired enters into a location with another unit that was not at the start of the impulse, does that second unit become acquired if it is shot at? If it is not shot at?

JR
 
Top