ACQ on Hip units....

[Stewart]

Tell me I'm missing something from SK3 and SK2 that was included in SK4.
Firing on an empty hex is ATT ACQ.
Firing on an infantry unit can be ITT and the 1/2" marker.

OK...that's simple enough.
Where does it say the 1/2" ACQ on the inf counter DOESN'T apply to a HIP unit? in SK2/3

It's kinda in SK4, but I can't see the direct rule for SK2/3.

Situation is a squad sitting on a HIP gun hex.
Squad is acq.... nothing says its not applicable to the gun.

NO ASL references Please.

 

[Jwil2020]

In the updated SK4 RB, I see that 6.10 (regarding 1/2" Target Acquisition) says, "When a Gun/MA makes a TH DR on the Infantry Target Type, or Vehicle Target Type it may place a 1/2" -1 Acquired Target counter on its TARGET." (my emphasis). To me, this would seem to rule out the HIP gun, since it cannot be targeted by the firing weapon, as long as it remains HIP. IMO

 

[Stewart]

Right, but what about NON SK4 players?
MG's can target the hex.
And you can fire on the HIP unit...just add case 23 i think...+2 vs "empty" hex.

MMP needs to ship out the SK4 RB with all the SK2 and SK3 later on.

 

[Stewart]

In the updated SK4 RB, I see that 6.10 (regarding 1/2" Target Acquisition) says, "When a Gun/MA makes a TH DR on the Infantry Target Type, or Vehicle Target Type it may place a 1/2" -1 Acquired Target counter on its TARGET." (my emphasis). To me, this would seem to rule out the HIP gun, since it cannot be targeted by the firing weapon, as long as it remains HIP. IMO

I don't see that exclusion in 6.10.
You are targeting the Crew INFANTRY. You'd add +2 if it were in a hex given my example, never says acq doesn't apply.

 

[Jwil2020]

Sorry. Didn't see your stipulation that you were asking for SK2/3 clarification. If I understand you right, you are asking if the 1/2" TARGET Acquisition on the squad should also apply to the HIP Gun (and its crew).

As any Acquisition Counter only applies to the TH DR, I guess what you really want to know is what effect would there be to the HIP Gun/Crew if a hit was scored?

3.2.4 (To Hit Process) under Infantry Target Type says, "All enemy targets except for BU AFV in the target hex can be affected by a hit including any Crew Exposed Units."

I also see that the Case 23 +2 DRM applies to AREA Fire, and 6.11 says, "Empty hexes may be fired at but must use the Area Target Type to do so and would gain Area Acquisition." And Area Acquisition applies to the hex, rather than the target.

Probably not helpful, but it's my two cents.

FWIW, I always use the updated SK4 RB as it is supposed to be the most accurate. I've chased too many rabbits through the pages of the earlier RBs only to find out the mysterious rule was clarified in SK4RB. YMMV

 

[Stewart]

FWIW, I always use the updated SK4 RB as it is supposed to be the most accurate. I've chased too many rabbits through the pages of the earlier RBs only to find out the mysterious rule was clarified in SK4RB. YMMV

Those damn rabbits Breed, and other little bunnies pop up every once in a while.
This came from a simple question.
WHY it hasn't been around...at least I haven't seen any questions like this is stunning.

 

[atago44]

Right, but what about NON SK4 players?
MG's can target the hex.
And you can fire on the HIP unit...just add case 23 i think...+2 vs "empty" hex.

MMP needs to ship out the SK4 RB with all the SK2 and SK3 later on.

I know this is kind of an older thread now but I will go ahead and comment.

The problem here is that, much like the original Squad Leader, Starter Kit rules build incrementally upon each other. What that means with regards to SKs is you have all the rules that are intended to be used for that module's scenarios in their respective SK. So it basically runs counter to the whole original point of SKs, which was to introduce new players to rules in nice, bite sized chunks, so that should they decide to switch to full ASL they would not be oeverwhelmed. Including the rule book from SK 4 in the earlier SK modules would at a minimum create confusion and in some cases applying its rules might unbalance scenarios.

Now that doesn't mean that you personally can't "retrofit" rules, ie. as house rules.

 

[Stewart]

I know this is kind of an older thread now but I will go ahead and comment.

The problem here is that, much like the original Squad Leader, Starter Kit rules build incrementally upon each other. What that means with regards to SKs is you have all the rules that are intended to be used for that module's scenarios in their respective SK. So it basically runs counter to the whole original point of SKs, which was to introduce new players to rules in nice, bite sized chunks, so that should they decide to switch to full ASL they would not be oeverwhelmed. Including the rule book from SK 4 in the earlier SK modules would at a minimum create confusion and in some cases applying its rules might unbalance scenarios.

Now that doesn't mean that you personally can't "retrofit" rules, ie. as house rules.

Highlighting the appropriate module sections should be sufficient for most cognitive people.
ARMOR and GUNS are mostly different enough.
And considering the meandering of the SKRB's as a whole, it shouldn't be that bad.

Learning from defective RB's doesn't help the understanding of later rules when the ones you've been playing with are changing.

 

[Vinnie]

I dont think there is hip in SK2/3 so any introduction of it by SSR needs to cover this situation.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I dont think there is hip in SK2/3 so any introduction of it by SSR needs to cover this situation.

There is for Guns.

 

[atago44]

Stewart,

You are making a pretty bold assumption that people who can't understand how you would "fix" things are not "cognitive."

I will repeat--the Starter Kits were designed to introduce new players to ASL. Granted, for many people the SKs often become their ASL "home," and I have no problem with that. But what you are suggesting would create undue confusion for people who are already trying to find their way through what is one of the most complex gaming systems in existence, even with the other full ASL rules omitted.

The secret to teaching ASL to new players is bite-sized chunks, and that is exactly what people get with each new starter kit. And best of all, each subsequent SK rulebook includes all the rules from the previous ones.

As for the "meandering" nature of the SK rulebooks--that's the nature of the beast when it comes to programmed instruction. Complaining about how the product works when it is working just as it is designed to work doesn't make a lot of sense.

There is nothing "defective" about the rulebooks.

 

[atago44]

I will also attempt an answer to question you originally asked.

You do not have a target in a hex that is unoccupied, therefore fire into that hex is area fire. Should you get a hit, you only gain acquistion of that hex, regardless of whether a hidden unit is revealed to be in that hex. That acquisition is the larger ac counter (area fire), not the smaller one (direct fire).


Of course, I could be wrong . . .

Update:

Sorry. I reread your post and it states that there is an unhip squad in the hex.

I would think in this case, unless it is area fire, the only target affected would be the squad. Hence, the gun should not lose its hip status.

And, of course, I could be wrong . . .

 

[atago44]

Okay, I had a chance to look at the SK 2 and SK 4 rules last night concerning the question.

The first thing to note is that per 6.4 any attack on a hidden unit is resolved as area fire, ie. half-fire power, which makes it more difficult to have an actual effect on the unit. To reveal a hidden unit an attack must have an effect on the unit with a minimum of a PTC check. Firing at the hidden unit is not sufficient to reveal it. What this means is, if you have a hidden unit in a hex that may be affected by fire, you are not obligated to inform your opponent of the presence of that unit unless the attack would affect the unit. Of course, in an "empty" hex this is a little more complicated, because if a hit is gained on that hex, a subsequent roll is needed to determine the effects on the HIP unit. There is no obligation to inform ones opponent the nature of the HIP unit until such time as there is an effect. (Someone who knows the rules better--am I correct here?)

With regards to targeting, per 6.10 and 6.11 there are two basic ways to attack a unit--as a target (Infantry Target Type and Vehicle Target Type) and as an hex (Area Target Type). ITT and VTT both use 1/2" acquisition counters, while the ATT uses the 5/8" acquistion counter. In all cases a hit is required to gain an acquisition counter, and their modifiers do not apply to the initial attack. As the ATT hit is on the hex and not the unit, only the hex and NOT the unit is acquired.

With regards to the ITT and VTT, you may only target a unit that is visible on the board. Because you do not see a HIP unit, they may not be attacked with either. And even if you find out per above that the hex contains a HIP unit, you still may not attack it using ITT or VTT because in game terms nothing has changed. Therefore, the only way to attack a HIP unit is with an attack in such a manner that the attack affects the whole hex; in this regard it would be an ATT.

What kind of attacks affect the whole hex? Flamethrowers, DC charges, ordnance (ATT), and OBA (per Decision at Elst). Even if an attack by ATT is a hit, the only acquisition is on that hex, not on the HIP unit. Also, in the case of guns we are actually talking about units, not a unit, ie. crew and gun. An attack that affects the crew may not affect the gun, and though the crew may be revealed the gun is not necessarily revealed.

Well, I am sure there is something wrong in all this, but this is my (current) understanding of rules.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I think you can use ITT or VTT against an empty Location in hope of finding a HIP unit. The end of 6.4 (ASLSK4 rules) has "An attack against a HIP Gun...", and the To Hit DRMs on the QRDC has 23 "firing at an empty hex".

 

[atago44]

I think you can use ITT or VTT against an empty Location in hope of finding a HIP unit. The end of 6.4 (ASLSK4 rules) has "An attack against a HIP Gun...", and the To Hit DRMs on the QRDC has 23 "firing at an empty hex".

Thanks for the info. I think I will go ahead and consult the Rulebook-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named in this thread to see if it can help clarify the issue.

I am no expert on this and here to learn as well.

 

[Actionjick]

Stewart,

You are making a pretty bold assumption that people who can't understand how you would "fix" things are not "cognitive."

I will repeat--the Starter Kits were designed to introduce new players to ASL. Granted, for many people the SKs often become their ASL "home," and I have no problem with that. But what you are suggesting would create undue confusion for people who are already trying to find their way through what is one of the most complex gaming systems in existence, even with the other full ASL rules omitted.

The secret to teaching ASL to new players is bite-sized chunks, and that is exactly what people get with each new starter kit. And best of all, each subsequent SK rulebook includes all the rules from the previous ones.

As for the "meandering" nature of the SK rulebooks--that's the nature of the beast when it comes to programmed instruction. Complaining about how the product works when it is working just as it is designed to work doesn't make a lot of sense.

There is nothing "defective" about the rulebooks.

I have a hard time understanding the bias against programmed instruction. That's how we learned Squad Leader and I felt it worked very well especially with scenarios featuring the rules just learned. Good stuff but I'm an OMSIP.

 

[atago44]

By the way, having looked for the answer to this question in the SK rulebooks I think I can better understand Stewart's point. It is fairly ambiguous. But if one were to bring the issue to MMPs notice I am sure they would offer help.

Now the best way to bring it to MMP's notice is to go to the Rules and Errata of this site's ASL page and post the question there. To get a positive response, it is best if one does not refer to the SK rulebook as "defective". It is the home of the unofficial "Perry Sez" collection. For those not familiar with Perry, he is Perry Cocke, a member of MMP. He is also the foremost expert on ASL rules, and an active member of this site. And there are other members of MMP who read this site who may help as well.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Now the best way to bring it to MMP's notice is to go to the Rules and Errata of this site's ASL page and post the question there.

The best way is to send MMP a mail using the Q&A email....

 

[atago44]

The best way is to send MMP a mail using the Q&A email....

Like I said, I am here to learn.