ABTF HASL - Why do you hate it? Why don't you hate it?

Paul_RS

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Yes I can see that might be an issue but would make a more interesting CG.
You’d need to see a copy of the GTS game laid out to appreciate the enormity of the undertaking at an ASL scale. HASL topics tend to suit relatively static actions over a small area. ASL is not designed, in my opinion, for large area/mobile historical encounters. Once you start to replicate historical encounters on historically accurate map sheets you need to start using historically accurate numbers of troops and vehicles. At ASL scale the pace of play would be glacial due to the number of units. Absence of any realistic command and control would also impact on the realism of any limitations to manoeuvre IMHO. ASL is a very detailed tactical game but it has significant limiting factors for large historically accurate encounters.
 

fenyan

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Watched A Bridge Too Far free on YouTube tonight. Then looked up Graebner's Folly on ROAR, interestingly it's 10 wins British vs 11 for the Germans.
 

Gunner Scott

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I think the campaign is balanced as is, the brits can not go toe to toe with the ss but in many games they try and lose. The key to a brit victory is knowing when to withdraw to the next line of defence and at the same time causing as much casualties on the ss as best as possible. Force the ss into a house by house fight and try to avoid the rampaing ss armor.
 

Futbol

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If I had it I could make a judgement so I'll wait for it to be redone. Also I think KGP is not a good HASL especially KGP2
 

Actionjick

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If I had it I could make a judgement so I'll wait for it to be redone. Also I think KGP is not a good HASL especially KGP2
We played the KGP HASLs but they were not our favorites. Actually very disappointing as we expected to really enjoy it. Red Barricades blows it out of the water. IMO. Fish's too.
 

pensatl1962

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Bingo!

No matter how historically accurate it is, no matter how much you fiddle with the VC, IT JUST AIN'T FUN for one or both sides.
This is the key: it needs to be fun. I’ve played three CGs in the past 18 months and they all ended after the first, second or third campaign date because it was just not fun for one of the sides. No faulty gameplay, just lacked balance and excitement. In all three cases my opponents and I agreed to cut our losses (and time) and move on.
 
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Actionjick

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This is the key: it needs to be fun. I’ve played three CGs in the past 18 months and they all ended after the first, second or third campaign date because it was just not fun for one of the sides. No faulty gameplay, just lacked balance and excitement. In all three cases my opponents and I agreed to cut our losses (in time) and move on.
What were the CGs you played?
 

Sparafucil3

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Because it's a HASL. I don't hate it. That's too strong. I just don't like ANY of them (EXC: Hatten was tolerable). -- jim
 

Craig Benn

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Interesting. I really liked KGP CGI as it gives both sides a chance to attack and the mist tends to cut down on kill stack dominance plus - unlike RB - there's an armour game.

I found the big Stalingrad CGs too long. I think the sweet spot is 4-8 dates. Any less and it doesn't really feel like an event - any more and it starts to become a grind.
 

Toby Pilling

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I think Melvin's idea about forcing the German player to effectively re-create 'Graebner's Folly' is sensible. Not doing so is so utterly un-historical that you might as well allow XXX Corp to turn up on a lucky die roll, or other Airborne battalions to push through to the bridge.
 
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M Faulkner

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I think Melvin's idea about forcing the German player to effectively re-create 'Graebner's Folly' is sensible. Not doing so is so utterly un-historical that you might as well allow XXX Corp to turn up on a lucky die roll, or other Airborne battalions to push through to the bridge.
That has been taken care of…😀
 

Yuri0352

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No matter how historically accurate it is, no matter how much you fiddle with the VC, IT JUST AIN'T FUN for one or both sides.
I would go a step further and say that this applies to virtually all of the scenarios/modules/games, etc. which attempt to represent Market-Garden.

I don't own ABTF nor have I played any of its scenarios. I have over the years played numerous Market-Garden scenarios including the entirety of Lone Canuck's 'Hell's Highway'. I did not enjoy playing ANY of these games. I prefer to play war games which try to be faithful to history, and have no interest in the hypothetical, 'what if' types of games. Any suggestion that altering the VC's or other ahistorical game design manipulations to improve balance are an instant turn off for me. That being said, IMO, any game related to Market-Garden which claims to be 'historical', will have to be somewhat unbalanced due to the simple fact that the actual military operation was based upon a deeply flawed plan which resulted in a costly fiasco.

Elite yet lightly armed paratroopers being dropped on to an SS armored unit; Allied armored columns traveling long distances on a road flanked by soft terrain through a gauntlet of AT weapons; The pointless sacrifice and misuse of the Polish airborne units... no matter who is publishing the game/scenario, the eventual outcome never seems to be in doubt.

Personally, the entire tragic tale of Market-Garden is so bleak that I no longer enjoy reading books about the battle either.
 

DVexile

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Any suggestion that altering the VC's or other ahistorical game design manipulations to improve balance are an instant turn off for me.

...the eventual outcome never seems to be in doubt.
At the risk of being nit-picky, I don't think altering VC's is necessarily ahistorical. VC's are just a way to make the game balanced in a sense of an equal chance of either side being declared the winner of the game, even though the outcome of the battle is not altered. Things like the number of turns or CVP thresholds do not historically change whether a given side retreated or held its ground, it just sets a metric for how well each player applied the game tactics in a representation of that battle. Apologies if you were already saying that and I'm just agreeing with you!

I think what you and Jazz are saying, which I largely agree with, is that some historical actions are simply not fun to play even if they remain historical and the VCs are successfully set for good balance.

There are plenty of examples of scenarios in which one side will simply be destroyed, but are still an absolute hoot to play, and the "destroyed" side can still achieve "game victory" by having a lone half-squad in melee at the end of the final turn. Often situations in which units are bravely holding out to the last man to hold up an attack and allow their comrades to retreat orderly to fight another day. Everyone knows the outcome - everyone represented by one side is going to die - but it is still a great scenario to play that both sides enjoy regardless of which player wins. The attacker feels like they have a tough nut to crack and are proud to crack it if they win, but at the same time can really appreciate the defender's setup and defense tactics if they lose. It is "fun" even if it represents a fair horror in reality.

And then there are the scenarios, that even if balanced in the game sense, are just unsatisfying regardless of the outcome. If the attacker wins it seems like it was an unfair match to begin with and not much glory was won, and if the defender wins it seems like a hollow "victory" because there weren't enough turns for the attacker or some "gamey" SSR came into play.

What is the fine line that separates those two kinds of scenarios? How does ABTF (at least the original version) fall into the later category (or not)? Interesting questions (at least to me). And your answer makes a good bit of sense to me, something akin to costly heroics are somehow diminished when they are only needed due to ineptitude at the top. Since ASL is largely about historical representation, if the history itself is somehow more depressing than usual it may be hard to make a scenario about it particularly enjoyable no matter how well "balanced".

Again, apologies if I failed to grasp what you were saying and my comments are off target.
 
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