About SW usage

mgmasl

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A squad possessing ATR and LMG fires as First Fire with the ATR and then with IFP.
During SFF/FPF, May use the LMG and IFP?

And the opposite.. Squad fire LMG and IFP as First Fire, then again LMG and IFP as SFF being marked Final Fire. Then is Overrun by an AFV.. May use the ATR as FPF Non-CC Reaction Fire per 7.221?
MG may not be used vs AFVs because FP is halved and so no possible to be used vs AFVs.
 
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Michael R

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You need to edit your original post. I think you used IFT for inherent firepower.
 

klasmalmstrom

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If you fire the inherent FP and a SW, you can't Fire another SW, IIRC.
 

mgmasl

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Doesn´t A7.353 allow use of IFP and MG/IFE as SFF/FPF?
I mean, if using two MGs as First Fire, May not use IFP and anyone of those MG as SFF?
 

jrv

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Q&A said:
A7.351 & C13.31 If a squad has fired its inherent FP and any SW (including a PF Check) during Defensive First Fire, may it fire any SW (including a PF Check) during Final Fire?
A. It could fire the same SW if that weapon can use Intensive Fire or Sustained Fire, but no other.
[Letter241]
This Q&A suggests that once a squad has committed to a particular SW, it must stick with that SW only. That said, A7.353 sounds as though the inherent could be used for SFF/FPF even if the unit used two SW in First Fire.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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...That said, A7.353 sounds as though the inherent could be used for SFF/FPF even if the unit used two SW in First Fire.
I think is correct, and A7.351 says/implies that as well:

"...A squad using two SW/Gun loses its inherent FP until the CCPh [EXC: 7.353]."
 

mgmasl

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If you agree with using Inherent as SFF and FPF is clear SW limits is not so clear -except for this Q&A I suppose still valid-.. I mean even using TWO SW the unit may fire its Inherent FP as SFF and FPF with any of the weapons used before (if MGs).. I mean, if the limit of using TWO SWs is not taking in account when firing as SFF and FPF -a new limit is considered-, why is the limit of using ONLY ONE SW? Is not possible to use a diff SW but only ONE?

Even with the Q&A, IFP is retained vs adjacent targets in Final Fire, So it´s looking one of the originally two weapons fired may be forfeited to use IFP. It looks a German squad may fire a PF and a MMG, and then IFP and the MMG as SFF and FPF.. Or an American one a BAZ and a HMG and then IFP and HMG as SFF and FPF.
 

Binchois

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If you agree with using Inherent as SFF and FPF is clear SW limits is not so clear -except for this Q&A I suppose still valid-.. I mean even using TWO SW the unit may fire its Inherent FP as SFF and FPF with any of the weapons used before (if MGs).. I mean, if the limit of using TWO SWs is not taking in account when firing as SFF and FPF -a new limit is considered-, why is the limit of using ONLY ONE SW? Is not possible to use a diff SW but only ONE?

Even with the Q&A, IFP is retained vs adjacent targets in Final Fire, So it´s looking one of the originally two weapons fired may be forfeited to use IFP. It looks a German squad may fire a PF and a MMG, and then IFP and the MMG as SFF and FPF.. Or an American one a BAZ and a HMG and then IFP and HMG as SFF and FPF.
First of all, this is an interesting thread! There is a ton of subtlety to Defensive Fire Principles which (for me) can always benefit from this kind of discussion.

I think, the first point to consider is whether the MPh and DFPh are together considered one phase for defensive fire purposes. A.15 suggests so, though saying that a unit may fire in both phases is not quite the same as saying these two phases count as one (I guess the above quoted Q&A supports that they are one). The reason this is significant is that SW usage (A7.35-7.353) is defined per phase. So if a squad can fire two SWs or one SW plus its IFP in one phase, then THAT's IT! Once it fires an MMG AND its IFP, it can only continue to fire that MMG and/or IFP during SFF (as per the cited Q&A). Personally, I think that the MPh and DFPh count as ONE PHASE for defensive fire purposes, so fire of both an MMG and IFP during First Fire would forfeit that unit's ability to use a second weapon during SFF, or Final Fire. As for FPF, see below...

Moreover, do remember certain restrictions during SFF, FPF, and Final Fire. Namely, that a unit firing during SFF can only use "small arms" MGs, and IFEs only, or forfeit their use for the remainder of the player turn. Any usable MGs must use Sustained Fire penalties. During FPF, a unit MUST use all usable MGs/IFEs in its possession (A8.31... no exceptions given. So if a squad has two MGs/IFEs, it cannot use its IFP). This last point can be a detriment to a squad possessing two SWs as a squad with an MMG and an LMG will be forced to use both despite that its IFP plus MMG could perhaps garner more firepower.

I think, btw, the idea is that firepower is an abstraction of manpower, firepower and time. Once a unit commits to using a SW, some of its men are assumed to be firing that weapon (at specific targets) during an extended length of time. While they are theoretically free to switch to another weapon as the enemy maneuvers multiple units into or out of view, the rules force a player to decide where its elects to focus its "primary attention" (and, thus, its "effective fire" for game purposes). The exception that a unit can more freely use IFP at adjacent locations simply acknowledges that a unit would almost certainly take the opportunity to defend itself versus an threat which was moving in close.

Anyway, that's my two cents... thanks for the question (and discussion so far)!
 
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General Mayhem

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I think that this area of the rules is very difficult to grasp and, along with leader direction of fire during Defensive First Fire and Subsequent First Fire, causes confusion.

Both A.7.351 and A7.352 call A7.353 as an exception. So although A7.351 tells you that use of 2 SWs prevents use of IFP until CC phase it also states that A7.353 is an exception to this and A7.353 states that Subsequent First Fire, FPF and Final Fire vs Adjacent units retain halved firepower (regardless of how they were used during first fire). It then goes on to say that use of SW/Gun capability during such attacks can negate inherent firepower in the normal manner.

So, unless there is a Q and A stating otherwise, it seems the rules are saying use of 2 SW in First Fire prevents use of IFP in First Fire and use of 2 SW in Subsequent First Fire prevents use of IFP in Subsequent First Fire, but use of 2 SW in First Fire does not prevent use of IFP in Subsequent First Fire.

The problematic bit is the use of the words “until the CC Phase” in A7.351, but does the exception not negate this?

The Q and A quoted earlier in this thread does not appear to have any rules that back it up, and I do not think it is one that was ever published in an official publication (I may be wrong), so what weight should it be given?
 

Robin Reeve

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One could craft a flowchart on that topic - or am I not aware of an existing one ?
 

Binchois

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...So, unless there is a Q and A stating otherwise, it seems the rules are saying use of 2 SW in First Fire prevents use of IFP in First Fire and use of 2 SW in Subsequent First Fire prevents use of IFP in Subsequent First Fire, but use of 2 SW in First Fire does not prevent use of IFP in Subsequent First Fire...
To be clear, the rules specifically state that a squad cannot SFF IFP if it fired two SWs (nor can a HS after firing one SW) unless firing at an adjacent hex as FPF (which is the EXCeption noted in 7.353).

7.351 A squad may fire any one SW/Gun without the squad losing its inherent FP; this inherent FP can be added to the SW attack in the case of a MG, or used for a separate attack in the same fire phase. A squad may never fire more than two SW in the same fire phase although it may fire two different types. A squad using two SW loses its inherent FP until the CCPh [EXC: 7.353].
But thanks, I didn't realize that the above-mentioned Q&A was of questionable validity. There definitely still seems some mystery as to when - or if - a squad which has already fired one SW plus IFP may be free to fire another SW. Definitely a complicated rules section!

Because 7.351 limits SW usage by phase, my guess is still that once a squad has opted to use either a SW/IFP or two SWs during First Fire, it can only:

A) continue to fire the same combination;
B) opt not to fire one of those elements during SFF; or
C) opt to substitute its IFP for its second SW at an adjacent hex as FPF.

And YES! Robin, a flowchart for this would be very helpful (I don't know of one either)!

P.S. I found this in Klas's Q&A compilation:

A8.3 Can an ATR SFF? (On the IFT as Small Arms Fire)
A. No, ATR should probably be listed in the EXC with MOL. [Letter168]​

But if an ATR's IFE is not allowed as SFF, what IFEs could? (probably obvious, though I can't think of one right now)!
 
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klasmalmstrom

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To be clear, the rules specifically state that a squad cannot SFF IFP if it fired two SWs (nor can a HS after firing one SW) unless firing at an adjacent hex (which is the EXCeption noted in 7.353).
The "vs adjacent units" part only applies to the last "entry" in the list.

I.e., A7.353:
" In both of the above cases, Subsequent First Fire (8.3), FPF (8.31), and Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units retain halved inherent FP for those attacks..."

Should be read like this:

"In both of the above cases,
a) Subsequent First Fire (8.3),
b) FPF (8.31),
c) Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units
retain halved inherent FP for those attacks..."

Official Q&A:
A7.353 May a HS that fired a SW in First Fire use its inherent FP in Subsequent First Fire vs. a non-adjacent target?
A. Yes, under the usual conditions (range, etc.).
[J1]
 

klasmalmstrom

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P.S. I found this in Klas's Q&A compilation:

A8.3 Can an ATR SFF? (On the IFT as Small Arms Fire)
A. No, ATR should probably be listed in the EXC with MOL. [Letter168]​

But if an ATR's IFE is not allowed as SFF, what IFEs could? (probably obvious, though I can't think of one right now)!
An ATR does not have an IFE (C2.29). But a Gun that has an IFE could use it to SFF. E.g., a German 2cm FlaK 38 AA Gun.
 

mgmasl

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The "vs adjacent units" part only applies to the last "entry" in the list.

I.e., A7.353:
" In both of the above cases, Subsequent First Fire (8.3), FPF (8.31), and Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units retain halved inherent FP for those attacks..."

Should be read like this:

"In both of the above cases,
a) Subsequent First Fire (8.3),
b) FPF (8.31),
c) Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units
retain halved inherent FP for those attacks..."

Official Q&A:
A7.353 May a HS that fired a SW in First Fire use its inherent FP in Subsequent First Fire vs. a non-adjacent target?
A. Yes, under the usual conditions (range, etc.).
[J1]
I suppose also the opposite.. Ie a HS using IFP in first fire may use a MG as SFF and in FPF
 

klasmalmstrom

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I suppose also the opposite.. Ie a HS using IFP in first fire may use a MG as SFF and in FPF
Yes, I believe that is correct - and for FPF is must (if it can) use the MG.

Another Q&A:

A7.353 & A8.31 If a HS uses a LMG during
Defensive First Fire, can it use both the LMG and
its inherent FP during Subsequent First Fire/Final
Protective Fire in the same phase?
A. No. It can use its LMG or its inherent FP in
Subsequent First Fire; for FPF, it must use its
LMG and cannot use its inherent FP.
[Variant in Gen23.2; An89; An95w; An96]
 

Binchois

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The "vs adjacent units" part only applies to the last "entry" in the list.

I.e., A7.353:
" In both of the above cases, Subsequent First Fire (8.3), FPF (8.31), and Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units retain halved inherent FP for those attacks..."

Should be read like this:

"In both of the above cases,
a) Subsequent First Fire (8.3),
b) FPF (8.31),
c) Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units
retain halved inherent FP for those attacks..."

Official Q&A:
A7.353 May a HS that fired a SW in First Fire use its inherent FP in Subsequent First Fire vs. a non-adjacent target?
A. Yes, under the usual conditions (range, etc.).
[J1]
Thanks Klas! That is what I thought...Only I left the important detail out of my last post (now edited).

As for the ATR detail, I always thought an ATR's 1FP was an IFE... thanks for clarifying!
 

General Mayhem

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and a squad that fires 2 SW in first fire is free to fire IFP in subsequent first fire?
 

Philippe D.

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OK, I thought I had some grasp of the way it's supposed to work, but now I'm confused.

In my mind, the rules were:
* if you're a Squad, and fire two SW, you cannot use your Inherent FP except as FPF (plus see below for FPF)
* if you're a HS (corrected), and fire one SW, you cannot use your Inhernet FP except as FPF (see below for FPF)
* if you're a Squad, and fire one SW plus Inherent FP, you cannot use a second SW at all
* if you're a HS, and fire your Inherent FP, you cannot use a second SW at all
* for FPF, you must use all available MGs as Sustained Fire

Is this correct? from the discussion, it looks like it isn't... (plus, from the way I wrote it, it looks like a unit possessing, say, 5 MGs would be allowed to use all of them as FPF, which doesn't feel right)
 
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Binchois

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OK, I thought I had some grasp of the way it's supposed to work, but now I'm confused.

In my mind, the rules were:
* if you're a Squad, and fire two SW, you cannot use your Inherent FP except as FPF (plus see below for FPF)
* if you're a Squad, and fire one SW, you cannot use your Inhernet FP except as FPF (see below for FPF)
* if you're a Squad, and fire one SW plus Inherent FP, you cannot use a second SW at all
* if you're a HS, and fire your Inherent FP, you cannot use a second SW at all
* for FPF, you must use all available MGs as Sustained Fire

Is this correct? from the discussion, it looks like it isn't... (plus, from the way I wrote it, it looks like a unit possessing, say, 5 MGs would be allowed to use all of them as FPF, which doesn't feel right)
So far as I know, all of what you say IS correct except the last part as a unit in FPF must fire all usable MGs (only two would be usable by one squad). What still seems slightly unclear is whether previously fired IFP makes a second MG unusable for FPF purposes...

In other words, do SW usage requirements "reset" (with added stipulations) during FPF? It seems clear that they do not for SFF as all Defensive Fire (in the MPh, at least) is considered the same phase.
 

jrv

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OK, I thought I had some grasp of the way it's supposed to work, but now I'm confused.

In my mind, the rules were:
* if you're a Squad, and fire two SW, you cannot use your Inherent FP except as FPF (plus see below for FPF)
* if you're a Squad, and fire one SW, you cannot use your Inhernet FP except as FPF (see below for FPF)
* if you're a Squad, and fire one SW plus Inherent FP, you cannot use a second SW at all
* if you're a HS, and fire your Inherent FP, you cannot use a second SW at all
* for FPF, you must use all available MGs as Sustained Fire

Is this correct? from the discussion, it looks like it isn't... (plus, from the way I wrote it, it looks like a unit possessing, say, 5 MGs would be allowed to use all of them as FPF, which doesn't feel right)

A7.353 says that inherent FP can also be used SFF as well as for FPF. If it uses two SW as First Fire, it may later use the inherent as SFF/FPF.

If a squad uses one SW only as First Fire (and doesn't cower; you can assume cowering as an EXC to many of these items), it may later use its inherent as First Fire, plus still later use the inherent and/or the SW (if a MG) as SFF. I am wondering if you meant "halfsquad" instead of "squad" in the second item.

Per A7.351 a squad may only use two SW/Gun in the same fire phase, so possessing five, even if they are MGs, would not be helpful. Although it is not stated, it is likely that a halfsquad/crew/smc can only use one SW/Gun in the same fire phase.

The question of whether a squad that fires one SW plus inherent can use a different SW as SFF/FPF remains to be answered, IMHO. My read of the Q&A I cited is that the answer is, "no." But that is a very old Q&A, and the person who answered it may no longer be working with ASL.

A halfsquad that fires its inherent as first fire may use a MG for SFF and must use the MG for FPF.

JR
 
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