Abandoning Prisoners then CC to kill

SSlunt

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we had a situation that I think I have seen discussed but I have been unable to find it or the answer

A British guard abandons his prisoners during the Advance phase to go into CC in another hex. Then another British unit advances on the newly abandon prisoners. If the British does not attempt recapture and goes for the kill does this invoke No Quarter.

I know that there has to be some thing to prevent/penalize this action
 

jrv

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we had a situation that I think I have seen discussed but I have been unable to find it or the answer

A British guard abandons his prisoners during the Advance phase to go into CC in another hex. Then another British unit advances on the newly abandon prisoners. If the British does not attempt recapture and goes for the kill does this invoke No Quarter.

I know that there has to be some thing to prevent/penalize this action
A20.53 "MOVEMENT: … Abandoned prisoners are still subject to the protection of 20.3-.4 (i.e., an abandoned prisoner subsequently eliminated by the side that abandoned it causes the Massacre rule to take immediate effect)."

The first place I always look for such rules is under a section titled "Movement."

JR
 
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R Hooks

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Your correct jrv, but I'm not even sure what he said is abandonment, I believe they might auto be captured if another holding side squad enters their hex the same turn.
 

jrv

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Your correct jrv, but I'm not even sure what he said is abandonment, I believe they might auto be captured if another holding side squad enters their hex the same turn.
I don't believe so. During the MPh a unit can make an immediate CC attack [A20.54] to recapture, but still has to attack. During the APh I don't think there is any similar "immediate" mechanism. You have to wait until the CCPh, and it's normal CC, albeit with -1 DRM for capture due to inexperienced (I believe).
 

CrosleyPup

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But couldn't the second squad advance first, transfer the prisoners, and then the first squad advances into CC?
As per A20.5.
20.5 GUARDS & UNARMED UNITS: ... The captor unit becomes the Guard and may only be relieved of that task during any friendly RPh/APh in which the prisoners—if not involved in Melee with the Guard—are either transferred above another guarding unit in the same manner as a SW (4.431) or abandoned. Such transfer does not penalize either unit's APh/RPh capabilities.....
 

von Marwitz

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But couldn't the second squad advance first, transfer the prisoners, and then the first squad advances into CC?
As per A20.5.
"A4.431 TRANSFER: Stacks may be freely rearranged to change possession of SW/Guns—but in all cases only between different Good Order unpinned units in the same Location [EXC: Wire (B26.4); Panji (G9.52); NA between Crest-status units and units IN a Depression], and only during a RPh, at the start of their APh, or as a result of the creation of a sub-unit from a MMC. When a Personnel unit drops possession (4.43), is eliminated/surrenders, or routs and cannot carry away its SW, its SW/Gun is left unattended in the same Location as per 4.32 or on the same vehicle [EXC: Rider Bailing Out (inclusive of D6.24, D15.46, D15.53)], and must be Recovered to be possessed. Transfer/Recovery of a SW/Gun on a vehicle in Motion can be achieved only by Passenger(s)/Rider(s) of that vehicle who likewise can only Transfer/Recover a SW/Gun which is on that Motion vehicle."

The question is, if the receiving unit may be the recipient of a Transfer as it has already advanced and is no longer at the start of its APh. This would only apply to the unit still being the guard and wishing to leave the location without its Prisoners.

von Marwitz
 

CrosleyPup

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This line is getting thinner and thinner.
...At the start of their APh ....
Who's their?
Is it the MMC who entered the hex (finishing their APh and receiving the prisoners) or the MMC that would be leaving (at the start of their APh).

Guess it depends on the meaning of their and which squad is using that as their personal pronoun for the day. :D
 

von Marwitz

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The beginning of the sentence mentiones 'stacks' and 'units' (i.e. plural). I understand that in a way that it is the requirement for both units to be at the start of their APh when they make the Transfer. I am not a native English speaker, though.

If it were not so, then theoretically a Prisoner or SW could be transferred any number of hexes by the method you have in mind, provided sufficient units are available. I do not think that it is the intention of the rule to allow that.

von Marwitz
 

semenza

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The Advance Phase Transfer takes place before any units actually advance. The Transfer is in the "At Start" section of the sequence of play chart and the actual Advancing of units is in the "During" section.

In practice most of the Advance phase stuff just gets done all at once but attention still needs to be paid to what is possible with Transfers.

Seth
 

klasmalmstrom

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But couldn't the second squad advance first, transfer the prisoners, and then the first squad advances into CC?
No.

Transfer is done in ASOP Step 7.11:
7.11A May Transfer SW/Gun(s)/Prisoner(s) (A4.431; A20.5)...


Advances are done in ASOP Step 7.21A:
7.21A Good Order Infantry not pinned or TI may advance...
 

Eagle4ty

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No.

Transfer is done in ASOP Step 7.11:
7.11A May Transfer SW/Gun(s)/Prisoner(s) (A4.431; A20.5)...


Advances are done in ASOP Step 7.21A:
7.21A Good Order Infantry not pinned or TI may advance...
Outstanding that you referenced the ASOP. I used to use the ASOP almost religiously back in the '90s but in the last 10-15 years I honestly can't remember a single instance (or so rarely that I have forgotten) of an opponent referring to the ASOP to resolve a simple question on "timing" of implementation of a rule.
 

Larry

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"at the start of their APh" would refer in context to the units involved. Before any of them take any other action such as advancing.

I don't think anyone really plays the swap first for all locations then the advances for all locations. The only time that being that fastidious matters is ... SMOKE. It would really slow down the game to 7.11 for all locations and then 7.21 for all locations.
 

Eagle4ty

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"at the start of their APh" would refer in context to the units involved. Before any of them take any other action such as advancing.

I don't think anyone really plays the swap first for all locations then the advances for all locations. The only time that being that fastidious matters is ... SMOKE. It would really slow down the game to 7.11 for all locations and then 7.21 for all locations.
If it helps to avoid confusion as to which units may perform a function, at least being aware that the sequence is lain out in Steps 7* of the ASOP it's worth following the intent. Very similar for Recovery & Repair of SW during the RPh. As long as my opponent remembers repair comes before recovery and he doesn't try to recover AND repair a SW/Gun in the same RPh, I will fudge a bit on actual performance of sequence to let the game move along a bit faster.
 
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