A9.221 ALTERNATE HEX GRAIN Fire Lane

[Steve E7]

Question regarding laying an A9.221 ALTERNATE HEX GRAIN Fire Lane .. specifically the angle of the shot whereby the FL is declared in relation to a Hex Grain.

The wording of A9.22 states

If he does declare a Fire Lane, he must place a First Fire counter on the MG and, after resolving that First Fire attack in the normal manner, must also place a Fire Lane Residual FP counter in one hex along a Hex Grain; that Hex Grain must include the MG's hex and its First Fire target hex, but he may place the Fire Lane counter in or beyond the latter hex.

That is simple enough if the Hex Grain runs right down a hexrow. Complicating things is when its along an alternate hexgrain. A FL is allowed, in this situation, as per A9.221

9.221 ALTERNATE HEX GRAIN: A Fire Lane may also be declared along an Alternate Hex Grain, which is a string of connected hexes in which the Fire Lane's LOF (i.e., a line drawn between the first and last center dot) lies along a hexspine of the first hex. Whenever that LOF lies along a hexside, the Alternate Hex Grain includes the hex either to the left or to the right of that hexside. If that LOF lies along more than one hexside, the Alternate Hex Grain consistently includes the hexes on one side (either left or right). When placing a Fire Lane Residual FP counter along an Alternate Hex Grain, the DEFENDER must declare whether that Alternate Hex Grain will include the left- or right-side hexes, but must place the counter itself in a hex with a hexspine that points directly back to the MG.

My question is, what if the string of connected hexes in which the LOF is drawn on the declared shot, does not lie along a hexspine of the first hex? Can a FL be placed?

Please see the image below. Can a MG in hex S5 declare a first fire attack and declare a FL at a unit as it enters hex V4?

 

[buser333]

Question regarding laying an A9.221 ALTERNATE HEX GRAIN Fire Lane .. specifically the angle of the shot whereby the FL is declared in relation to a Hex Grain.

The wording of A9.22 states

If he does declare a Fire Lane, he must place a First Fire counter on the MG and, after resolving that First Fire attack in the normal manner, must also place a Fire Lane Residual FP counter in one hex along a Hex Grain; that Hex Grain must include the MG's hex and its First Fire target hex, but he may place the Fire Lane counter in or beyond the latter hex.

That is simple enough if the Hex Grain runs right down a hexrow. Complicating things is when its along an alternate hexgrain. A FL is allowed, in this situation, as per A9.221

9.221 ALTERNATE HEX GRAIN: A Fire Lane may also be declared along an Alternate Hex Grain, which is a string of connected hexes in which the Fire Lane's LOF (i.e., a line drawn between the first and last center dot) lies along a hexspine of the first hex. Whenever that LOF lies along a hexside, the Alternate Hex Grain includes the hex either to the left or to the right of that hexside. If that LOF lies along more than one hexside, the Alternate Hex Grain consistently includes the hexes on one side (either left or right). When placing a Fire Lane Residual FP counter along an Alternate Hex Grain, the DEFENDER must declare whether that Alternate Hex Grain will include the left- or right-side hexes, but must place the counter itself in a hex with a hexspine that points directly back to the MG.

My question is, what if the string of connected hexes in which the LOF is drawn on the declared shot, does not lie along a hexspine of the first hex? Can a FL be placed?

Please see the image below. Can a MG in hex S5 declare a first fire attack and declare a FL at a unit as it enters hex V4?

View attachment 4199

Sure, as an alternate hex grain fire lane on the T4/V4/X4... side could be placed.

 

[jrv]

You are thinking the LOS to the firelane is to the hex the counter is placed in, but with an alternate grain firelane there are multiple LOSes, one to each hex. The firelane you show is legal and uses LOSes to T4, V4, X4, and potentially Z4 if you put the counter there instead, as well as the LOSes straight out the T4/T5 hexspine. The shot that starts an alternate-grain firelane has to lie within the firelane but there will be many LOSes. That is a legal placement.

JR

 

[Steve E7]

Got it, thanks to both of you!

 

[Pyth]

I've got nothing to add to any of the rules being clarified here...but, just eyeballing it, but there is no way there is a los from S5 to X4. It hits the building. As for the firelane hitting z4... that is madness. That firelane is effective in T4 U5 V4 (barely scraping past the buidling as I see it)... and that's it. Somebody want to string it? (*not even certain it scrapes past the builidng in V4 now that I look at it.)

 

[A_T_Great]

The only thing I would add, is that the fire lane is blocked if the hex is out of LOS of the manning infantry counter. I.E. W5 and X4 are not affected by the fire lane. See the last Paragraph of A 9.22 and the second example.

 

[jrv]

I've got nothing to add to any of the rules being clarified here...but, just eyeballing it, but there is no way there is a los from S5 to X4. It hits the building. As for the firelane hitting z4... that is madness. That firelane is effective in T4 U5 V4 (barely scraping past the buidling as I see it)... and that's it. Somebody want to string it? (*not even certain it scrapes past the builidng in V4 now that I look at it.)

This actually doesn't matter as far as firelane counter placement is concerned. The firelane counter can be placed out of LOS. It is just a marker for the hexgrain and the maximum distance that the firelane will extend. The firelane will not affect any hexes where the LOS is blocked, even if the firelane counter is placed beyond that point. On the other hand the maximum distance that the firelane will attack is determined by the counter. So if you have, say, a B11 MG, you might place the firelane short of its potential maximum because you don't care about movement in the back. So you could place the firelane counter in X4, and if the LOS is blocked, oh well. That is not an illegal placement and has no effect on the hexes where the firelane does reach. The firelane counter can even be placed beyond the normal range of the MG, so long as it is on the right hexgrain and on/past the DFF target. See A9.22.

JR

 

[Pyth]

This actually doesn't matter as far as firelane counter placement is concerned. The firelane counter can be placed out of LOS. It is just a marker for the hexgrain and the maximum distance that the firelane will extend.

Right, I never disagreed with any of that, as indicated by my saying -- "I've got nothing to add to any of the rules being clarified here" -- but to read into my own remarks what I'm gently hinting at is, as a practical matter... don't place the FL marker on the other side of the map! JRV, you say "the firelane counter can be placed out of los" -- well not only can be, but in the OP example quite evidently IS out of los. So, does anything govern how far back you can place that FL marker? I think the only limit is common sense. What I was saying is, common sense indicates you don't need to move that FL marker to AA5 in order to include Z4 in the firelane, that's getting silly. If you're going to do that what not place it on the board edge? (which is going beyond silly and becoming obnoxious). IMO as a practical matter that FL marker belongs in W5. Everything on the grain back of W5 is imho obviously out of LOS. Is the marker legally placed in Y5? Yes, certainly, legally, but is it sensibly placed? It could be, if it's to avoid unit clutter... it's just a marker. But on the bare board as given in the OP: Put it in W5... I'm talking aesthetics, not rules.

 

[Pyth]

I suppose it's worth mention that placing the FL marker at less than maximum distance from the mg is practical, not aesthethics, when the Firelane LOS is clear. Fire lanes can be placed as short as into the target hex and no further, regardless of how much further the FL might extend -- this shortening of the FL would be to avoid low percentage shots that might malf the gun/activate sniper. Otherwise you must apply the residual when it occurs between the FL marker and the source if the residual has enough FP to get a result.... At least that's how I read A9.222 "Fire Lane Residual FP attacks cannot cause the firer to Cower and need not be made if they could cause no effect."

I also wonder if my post above is actually correct... can a FL marker actually, obnoxiously, be placed "across the board"? The maximum distance a FL extends is normal range. So, would a FL marker placed beyond normal range qualify as an illegally placed FL marker (which is specifically called out by the rules as cancelling the FL)?

 

[jrv]

Although the rules say an illegally placed firelane is removed, the only criteria seem to be that it be placed on the hexgrain and at or beyond the initial target.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Although the rules say an illegally placed firelane is removed, the only criteria seem to be that it be placed on the hexgrain and at or beyond the initial target.

JR

As far as I know, nothing requires you to extend the FL to the maximum of the plancing machine gun's range, i.e. a German LMG could opt to lay down the FL out to a range of 4 hexes only and is not required to lay it down to a range of 8 hexes.

In such casese, I see no harm in placing the FL counter at the range of 4 hexes.

von Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IIRC, there is Q&A that allows one to place the actual FL RFP counter beyond the normal range of the MG - the actual Fire Lane will, of course, not extend beyond the normal range.

 

[jrv]

As far as I know, nothing requires you to extend the FL to the maximum of the plancing machine gun's range, i.e. a German LMG could opt to lay down the FL out to a range of 4 hexes only and is not required to lay it down to a range of 8 hexes.

In such casese, I see no harm in placing the FL counter at the range of 4 hexes.

If your intention is to lay down the firelane to less than its maximum possible range, you must put it in the last hex you want it in, e.g. at four hexes. If your intention is to put the firelane out to the maximum range of the weapon, you can place it in any hex on the hexgrain from that point out to infinity and beyond.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

If your intention is to lay down the firelane to less than its maximum possible range, you must put it in the last hex you want it in, e.g. at four hexes. If your intention is to put the firelane out to the maximum range of the weapon, you can place it in any hex on the hexgrain from that point out to infinity and beyond.

JR

Good. This has been my understanding. Surprisingly, I get things right bytimes...

vno Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...If your intention is to put the firelane out to the maximum range of the weapon, you can place it in any hex on the hexgrain from that point out to infinity and beyond.

To reduce counter clutter on the board I am playing on, I usually try to place my Fire Lane counters on the boards they are playing with on the next board over.

 

[djohannsen]

You are thinking the LOS to the firelane is to the hex the counter is placed in, but with an alternate grain firelane there are multiple LOSes, one to each hex. The firelane you show is legal and uses LOSes to T4, V4, X4, and potentially Z4 if you put the counter there instead, as well as the LOSes straight out the T4/T5 hexspine. The shot that starts an alternate-grain firelane has to lie within the firelane but there will be many LOSes. That is a legal placement.

JR

Wow! This is a rule that I have thoroughly misunderstood. I would have said that an alternate hex grain fire lane ended at hex U5.

So, to make sure that I understand correctly... The bullets in an alternate hex grain fire lane are not zigzagging, so are not stopped at the first obstruction to LoS (i.e., U5 in the example above). However, if there is no LoS to a particular hex in an alternating hex grain fire lane, then that particular hex is not subject to the attack? That will sure change things in how I consider placing fire lanes!

Thank you for opening my eyes to the proper reading of this rule!

 

[jrv]

Actually now that I look at it, the rule is a bit weird. What path do those bullets take? I guess it's the result of imposing a hexgrid on a world that is not hexagonal.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Another interesting thing about FLs are FL Snapshot attacks.

In the picture of the OP, imagine Woods in T4 and T5 with the hexside T4-T5 not being blocked. All other terrain is Open Ground. The FL exists as pictured.

Now, the Russian HS moves from V4 to V5. Despite there is no LOS from S5 to V4 and V5, the HS is still attacked by the FL at full FL RFP (not halved for Snap Shot) as it exits V4 across the LOF if it has not previously been attacked by FL RFP when entering V4, which would not be possible for lack of LOS to V4.

von Marwitz

 

[Pyth]

Another interesting thing about FLs are FL Snapshot attacks.

In the picture of the OP, imagine Woods in T4 and T5 with the hexside T4-T5 not being blocked. All other terrain is Open Ground. The FL exists as pictured.

Now, the Russian HS moves from V4 to V5. Despite there is no LOS from S5 to V4 and V5, the HS is still attacked by the FL at full FL RFP (not halved for Snap Shot) as it exits V4 across the LOF if it has not previously been attacked by FL RFP when entering V4, which would not be possible for lack of LOS to V4.

von Marwitz

I don't believe this is correct, at least not as I read the FL rules. Here's what I think is the relevant part of 9.221 Alternate Hex Grain "A unit crossing a hexside to enter/exit a Location where an Alternate-Hex-Grain Fire Lane exerts Residual FP may be attacked by it as a Snap Shot, provided the hexside being crossed lies along the Fire Lane's LOF... . "

In the case you are describing the unit is NOT exiting a location where the Alt Hex Grain exerts Residual FP. It's a no LOS location and there is no residual there and no Snap Shot from crossing the hexside out of the Alt-Grain (despite the LOF that does exist at the hexside).

 

[Juzek]

Actually now that I look at it, the rule is a bit weird. What path do those bullets take? I guess it's the result of imposing a hexgrid on a world that is not hexagonal.

JR

Another aspect of "hex-world" is that X3 and Y4 are impossible to include in a FL yet are in the MG's LOS. I don't have a fix for it, I guess you just have to position your MG to have the best hex grain/alternate hex grain you can for a FL.