A9.22 Firelane questions

apw921

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Hi folks,

A couple of questions about firelanes.

I have attached an image of a game situation where I am trying to lay a firelane from 1T7 to 1Q3 (both at level 0) after attacking the Russian unit in 1R4 which has just expended 1 MP by moving from Q4.

Question #1
The German stack in 1T7 consisting of an 8-1 Leader, 2 MMC's with a LMG & MMG has First Fired at 1R4. Can I now establish a firelane along the "left" alternate hex grain to 1Q3 as depicted in the attached image?

Question #2
Since there are two mg's in the stack and they can't be combined into one FG for FL puposes can I instead establish two seperate FL's one for each mg along the same hex grain to hex 1Q3?

Thanks in advance and I apologize if this has been asked and answered previously.

Gus
 

Brian W

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Question #1
The German stack in 1T7 consisting of an 8-1 Leader, 2 MMC's with a LMG & MMG has First Fired at 1R4. Can I now establish a firelane along the "left" alternate hex grain to 1Q3 as depicted in the attached image?

Question #2
Since there are two mg's in the stack and they can't be combined into one FG for FL puposes can I instead establish two seperate FL's one for each mg along the same hex grain to hex 1Q3?
The answer is yes to both questions.
 

Jazz

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The answer is yes to both questions.
I agree and would also add that the fire lane needs to be declared before the shot actually takes place....you do not get a chance to see if the MG got ROF on the shot before declaring the placement of a fire lane.
 

Blackcloud6

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I'm interested to see comments on this fire lane placement as depicted because neither alternate hex grains are clear due to buildings buildings in S5 and S7.

Also the way you asked question 1 I wonder what you mean because you say the MGs have first fired. If they have already fired then you cannot lay down a FL. if yo mean you wish to lay down a FL when they first fire then yes you can but as Jazz says so, must say so before you shoot.
 
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Jazz

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I'm interested to see comments on this fire lane placement as depicted because neither alternate hex grains are clear due to buildings buildings in S5 and S7.

Also the way you asked question 1 I wonder what you mean because you say the MGs have first fired. If they have already fired then you cannot lay down a FL. if yo mean you wish to lay down a FL when they first fire then yes you can but as Jazz says so, must say so before you shoot.
Fred raises and interesting point that I kinda blew by.

As he states there are hexes in the proposed alternate grain fire lane that are out of LOS. There are also hexes in it that are in LOS beyond those hexes in the fire lane.

Does a blocked LOS to certain parts of the fire lane stop the fire lane from extending beyond to more distant hexes that are in LOS?

I have always played that they do, but I do remember looking at the rules and it not being absolutely crystal clear....and I do recall at least one instance where two reasonable opponents decided it with a dr.
 

spwhites

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Looks like the A9.222 example might be helpful to answer this example.
By the way, thanks for documenting your question; I usually end a game with half a dozen similiar questions, but quickly forget them in the thrill of victory (or while drowning my sorrows in a pint of Guinness...)
Anyways, the example shows a firelane extending beyond the point where it is blocked due to the alternate side selected. I would play it that it could be played as shown, affecting hexes that are in LOS; there are also multiple snapshot opportunities for units crossing the line of hexsides between those "out of LOS" hexes.
 

SamB

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I agree. The firelane(s) can be placed, in any hex(s) in LOS in the alternate hex grain. (even those beyond some blocked points...)

As long as there is LOS from the firer to the hex in question...
 

Blackcloud6

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spwhites and SamB, thanks. This is an area where the rules are not really clear and the example given does not really show it. One like the apw921's above would be better.
 
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Hello all,
This is the game we are playing and I hoped to summarize to clear my own mind up.I will try point by point and see how I do.
1. FL must be declared before the D1F shot, If alternate hexgrain is required left or right must also be declared.
2. Only one FL attack may be declared at a time but may be combined with a FG attack, If another FL attack is desired it is subject to MP expenditure so 1 MP 1 FL, 2 MP 2 FL etc.
3. Units attacked by the FL must be in LOS (not subject to hindrances), If not in LOS then snap shot attacks are possible.

Anything I am missing here?
 

SamB

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I don't see anything in the rules that says you can't declare two firelanes with one shot. (on the same MP expenditure.) You resolve firelane residual seperately, but I think you can declare mulitple firelanes. (e.g. declare on "left" and one "right" alternate hex grain firelanes...)

Now I'll have to read the rule book. :(
 
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Just as a side question I thought a unit could only be attacked as many times in a hex as MP expended in that hex, or am I wrong that.
 
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Jazz

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Just as a side question I thought a unit could only be attacked as many times in a hex as MP expended in that hex, or am I wrong that.
It can only be attacked by one unit as many times as it has spent MP. If it spends 1 MP and there are 3 seperate units all in different locations that can attack it on that 1 MP, it can be attacked 3 times. If it spends 2 MP and 3 units can attack it, then it can be attacked 6 times, etc....

You can declare as many fire lanes as you have MG taking a shot. Those fire lane residuals cannot be combined into a larger fire lane residual but must each be resolved individually as units become subject to them.

Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean in your comment #3 "Units attacked by the FL must be in LOS (not subject to hindrances), .... so just to be precise....

You can attack, and the fire lane continues to attack units through LOS hinderances. The DRM for some of those hinderances apply, for others they do not, otherwise known as "Soft" vs "Hard" hinderances as listed in A9.222:

A9.222 said:
....the effects of Hindrance/hexside/bridge DRM are resolved as DRM to the Residual FP attack [EXC: SMOKE/grain/brush/marsh/FFE/Heavy-(or denser)-Dust-(F11.794)/hut-(G5.21) Hindrances do not apply as DRM but do cancel FFMO;LV-(E3.1)/DLV-(F11.6) Hindrances do not apply as DRM].
Edit: Added location language (in red) to conform to mandatory firegroups....
 
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bos

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This should be okay. The mandatory FG rules do not apply when laying firelanes, so they can attack separately at the same target on the same MF expenditure.
 
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Thanks Jazz, We are saying the same thing different ways on the hindrance so I am good there. I really can't remember how I have been playing the MP thing so that clears it up nicely, and the Fl attacking separately is clearer also. Thanks of the help.
Paul
 

apw921

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Hi Folks,

Just wanted to say thanks for all the thoughtful replies and I will apply what I have learned here.

All the best

Gus
 

Blackcloud6

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Welcome. And I learned something too. So besides the knuckle brawls in the Catina one can still learn something on GS about ASL! :smoke:
 

Corwin

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Nice illustration. All rules questions should have an illustration, all of us beign VASL experts and all.

Cheers
 

SamB

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This should be okay. The mandatory FG rules do not apply when laying firelanes, so they can attack separately at the same target on the same MF expenditure.
Really? I think madatory FG rules do apply when taking the first shot.

The fire lane residual attacks seperately, but I'll have to crack the rules to see that Madatory FG doesn't apply to the shot that lays the fire lane.
 

Jazz

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This should be okay. The mandatory FG rules do not apply when laying firelanes, so they can attack separately at the same target on the same MF expenditure.
Actually, I think that Sam is correct that mandatory FG rules do apply to the initial shot. Each individual MG would place it's own FL RFP and each would be resolved seperately as units are attacked by the firelane.

A bit of a digression but in a similar vein, if you boresight a hex with a MG, you do not get the -2 DRM if there are any other units shooting on that shot.....and mandatory firegroups do apply. Note also that MG bore sighting can only be used in First/Subsequent/Final Fire (not Prep Fire).
 

bos

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Really? I think madatory FG rules do apply when taking the first shot.

The fire lane residual attacks seperately, but I'll have to crack the rules to see that Madatory FG doesn't apply to the shot that lays the fire lane.
Well, all it says is:

7.55 MANDATORY FG: If Good Order units/weapons in the same Location are going to fire at the same target (i.e., at both the same Location and the same unit and the same "simultaneous" [8.1] MF/MP expenditure; see D3.5) during the same phase they must form a FG [EXC: Fire Lane; 9.22]; they may not attack separately except with ordnance/FT/DC or the subsequent shots of multiple ROF weapons (9.2).

So, your guess is as good as mine as to what "EXC: Fire Lane" is supposed to mean, but I can only assume it applies to firelanes in general, both their placement and resolution.
 
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