A9.22 Fire Lane and DR Sequence

Eagle4ty

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I believe that if the unit announces and makes a multiple MF or MP expenditure and then is attacked on a MF/MP lower than the last one, the placement of residual (whether firelane or regular) will not result in the unit being attacked by that residual on later MF/MP of that same expenditure. I read, "Thereafter any unit entering (or expending MF/MP in) that same Location in the MPh is attacked on the IFT," as meaning that the entry/expenditure causing a residual attack has to be announced and made after the placement of the residual. The residual will not attack a unit in the same expenditure that the residual was placed on, no matter how many MF/MP that expenditure was.

One can think of this as the residual being place after the completion of the expenditure, but the rules don't specifically say that. In particular this might have odd effects on impulse movement. If an impulse move made a multiple MF/MP expenditure and a firelane is announced on the first MF/MP, I would think the firelane would be placed immediately and the additional impulse attacks made per A9.222. If the firelane is considered placed at the very end of the impulse, the defender could not observe the effects of the firelane on these other moving units before announcing his other Defensive Fire for that expenditure.

JR
In otherwords what you are saying is that a shot (including a FL) may only be made after the unit has spent all of its MF/MP entering the Location regardless of the MF/MP spent and that a defensive fire shot could not be undertaken predicated only on the 1st MF/MP spent entering the Location? Where does it say it is only placed at the end of the moving units MF expenditure for entering that terrain? It does not seem that the 2nd bullet of 8.22 implies the multiple MF costs for entering terrain, but A8.2 does emphatically states RFP is placed when a unit is attacked and that "...Thereafter, any unit entering (or expending MF/MP in) that same Location in the same MPh is attacked on the IFT with the FP represented by that Residual FP counter, ...".
 

jrv

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In otherwords what you are saying is that a shot (including a FL) may only be made after the unit has spent all of its MF/MP entering the Location regardless of the MF/MP spent and that a defensive fire shot could not be undertaken predicated only on the 1st MF/MP spent entering the Location? Where does it say it is only placed at the end of the moving units MF expenditure for entering that terrain? It does not seem that the 2nd bullet of 8.22 implies the multiple MF costs for entering terrain, but A8.2 does emphatically states RFP is placed when a unit is attacked and that "...Thereafter, any unit entering (or expending MF/MP in) that same Location in the same MPh is attacked on the IFT with the FP represented by that Residual FP counter, ...".
I believe that "expending" and "making an expenditure" are meant to be synonymous. That is one does not, making an expenditure of three MF, expend one MF then expend one MF then expend one MF for the purposes of triggering residual FP.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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I believe that "expending" and "making an expenditure" are meant to be synonymous. That is one does not, making an expenditure of three MF, expend one MF then expend one MF then expend one MF for the purposes of triggering residual FP.

JR
But they can trigger S1F shots independently?
 

jrv

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But they can trigger S1F shots independently?
The separate MF/MP allow DFF, SFF & FPF attacks, perhaps with different modifiers too (for MP). I limited my comment to "the purposes of triggering residual FP." Note also that MP expended are part of one MP expenditure for Bounding First Fire. A DEFENDER may fire at an ATTACKER as many times as MP expended, but an ATTACKER may only make one Bounding Fire attack per expenditure, no matter how many MP spent.

JR
 

Pyth

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I think A8.22 in combination with 8.26 EX2 is pretty dang clear. There aren't residual attacks for simultaneous expenditure, moreover simultaneous versus separate expenditure isn't even the principal issue.

A8.22 ...A unit can be attacked by Residual FP only once per Location [EXC: if, since that first Residual FP attack, the Residual FP has increased in strength or the unit is subject to more-negative-DRM/less-positive-DRM, it will be attacked again by that Residual FP upon further MF/MP expenditure]
In the 8.26 EX2. we have a unit entering a OG hex containing Residual and a foxhole. Entering the hex costs 1 MP, it undergoes a residual attack and then makes a separate MF expenditure to enter IN the foxhole. A foxhole is of course still the same location and the unit does not undergo a second Residual attack.

It's a two squad foxhole, and there's another squad in there. On its Mph it recovers an MG in the foxhole (1 MF expenditure) and takes attack from the residual. The example concludes saying that if the squad: "then exits the foxhole, it would be attacked again by the Residual FP since it is becoming more vulnerable with a -2 DRM for FFNAM/FFMO."

Which is to say not since it is expending further mp.

Residual FP does not attack moving units as if it were a DFF unit making a small arms attack at every possible MF expenditure. Residual FP is not a DFF'ing unit.
 

Pyth

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Oh and I suppose there needs to be an example of a unit entering 2mf terrain, taking fire on the first mf (which places residual) and then not taking residual attack when expending the second mf. This occurs unequivocally in the EX A8.41
 

klasmalmstrom

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When a unit enters a 2-MF-cost terrain both of the MF are already spent when any DFF takes place. I can e.g., fire at it twice, DFF and SFF (vs the 2 MF spent) and then fire another unit twice with DFF and SFF. Any Residual FP placed wil not attack the unit as it has already spent its 2 MF when the Residual FP is placed.

Also, see the A8.41 example - the berserk 6-2-8 enters X2 (building, 2 MF) then the 8-1, 4-6-7wLMG attacks it using SFF - this leaves a 4 Residual FP. There is no mention that this 4-RFP attacks the berserk (now) 3-2-8 on its second MF spent entering the building Location.
 

Eagle4ty

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Oh and I suppose there needs to be an example of a unit entering 2mf terrain, taking fire on the first mf (which places residual) and then not taking residual attack when expending the second mf. This occurs unequivocally in the EX A8.41
Yes this is the type of verification needed! Too bad the rules leave too much open to interpretation. Guess I haven't been playing it wrong all these years after all!🆒👍 (Note to self, check the examples!!)
 

RandyT0001

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PublicationPublisherIssuedArticleAuthorPageDescriptionASLRBTopic
ASL Journal Issue 6Multi-Man Publishing
2005​
The Persistence of FirepowerOlie, David
16​
RFP & firelanes in ASLA 8.2, A 9.2Rules Analysis / Tactics
ASL Journal Issue 6Multi-Man Publishing
2005​
Comprehensive Example: Residual Firepower and Fire LanesOlie, David
34​
RFP & firelanes in ASLA 8.2, A 9.2Rules Analysis
Dispatches From the Bunker Issue 6Provost, Vic
Mar-99​
Tactical Tips For Novices: Firelanes - Who Mans that Machinegun?
Using SW machine guns effectivelyA 9Tactics
Point Blank Issue 4.2Silicon Valley ASL Club
Nov-10​
Back to the Basics: FireLanesSVASL Message Board
7​
Tactical tips on using fire lanes in ASLA 9.22Rules Analysis / Tactics
 

Eagle4ty

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PublicationPublisherIssuedArticleAuthorPageDescriptionASLRBTopic
ASL Journal Issue 6Multi-Man Publishing
2005​
The Persistence of FirepowerOlie, David
16​
RFP & firelanes in ASLA 8.2, A 9.2Rules Analysis / Tactics
ASL Journal Issue 6Multi-Man Publishing
2005​
Comprehensive Example: Residual Firepower and Fire LanesOlie, David
34​
RFP & firelanes in ASLA 8.2, A 9.2Rules Analysis
Dispatches From the Bunker Issue 6Provost, Vic
Mar-99​
Tactical Tips For Novices: Firelanes - Who Mans that Machinegun?
Using SW machine guns effectivelyA 9Tactics
Point Blank Issue 4.2Silicon Valley ASL Club
Nov-10​
Back to the Basics: FireLanesSVASL Message Board
7​
Tactical tips on using fire lanes in ASLA 9.22Rules Analysis / Tactics
Unfortunately kind of out of the net 2004-2008 so never got a chance to acquire J6 as for the other two had never seen them but very much appreciate your effort to provide this list.
 

RandyT0001

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Unfortunately kind of out of the net 2004-2008 so never got a chance to acquire J6 as for the other two had never seen them but very much appreciate your effort to provide this list.
Maybe witchbottles can help with the last reference, Point Blank 4.2 I think that fanzine was produced in his neck of the woods. Maybe he knows if it is posted somewhere like Texas's group's "Banzi!!" or the British "View From the Trenches" fanzines are posted online.
 

von Marwitz

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IMHO A Fire Lane eliminates any possibility of ROF for a MG.. I´ve played always the inverse is also true.. I mean, a MG using its first shot not declaring a Fire Lane may not declare a Fire Lane if getting ROF, because it´s using ROF and ROF and Fire Lanes are not compatible.
Placing a FL eliminates the possibility of ROF.
But retaining ROF does not eliminate the possibility to place a FL after previous non-FL attacks.

I agree with JRV and his rules quote above. Always played it that way.

von Marwitz
 
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I think in essence the onus is on the ROF, do you risk loosing ROF as once that is gone ( ROF = <cdr) a FL is not possible.

Do you keep splatting the LMG- HMG out the window or do you pick one and hold it in place?

The FL aspect is a mute argument as the ROF answers it.

There is one aspect that I am not clear about. In grain it is often pointless firing through X grain hexes ( hindrances) as it affects the shot.

However, a FL is a different story ( same with smoke) , can the FL be placed instantaneously with the shot OR is the MMG mandatorily applied to the initial shot?

In short, is there a way to get the lead down on the initial shot without being affected by the grain at the initial target ?
 

semenza

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Not that this really has any bearing on a different rule but it might be demonstrative ...........................................
IMHO A Fire Lane eliminates any possibility of ROF for a MG.. I´ve played always the inverse is also true.. I mean, a MG using its first shot not declaring a Fire Lane may not declare a Fire Lane if getting ROF, because it´s using ROF and ROF and Fire Lanes are not compatible.

Not that this really has any bearing on a different rule but it is demonstrative of a very similar situation ...........................................

Area Target Type eliminates ROF. And Taking a non- ATT shot , obtaining rate, also eliminates ATT. This is a change between first edition and second edition. Use to be (at least as written in the RB, there may have been a Q&A) that ATT could still be used after maintaining ROF.

Seth
 
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MHO A Fire Lane eliminates any possibility of ROF for a MG.. I´ve played always the inverse is also true.. I mean, a MG using its first shot not declaring a Fire Lane may not declare a Fire Lane if getting ROF, because that is what it says it´s using ROF and ROF and Fire Lanes are not compatible.

Keep ROF and you can FL later all you want. Kill everyone N,S,E W out appropriate windows THEN FL in one direction. Neat.
 
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