(A9.2) Machine Guns ROF and Defensive Fire

Mechashef

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After being away from Squad Leader for over a decade, I’ve picked up the ASLSK, and have a few questions.

If a unit moves into a hex (1MF), then successfully creates smoke within that hex (1MF). If a defender wishes to Defensive First Fire, does the smoke affect the roll?

If a unit moves into a building hex a enemy unit could be entitled to Defensive First Fire and Subsequent First Fire. If Defensive First Fire, pins the moving unit, can the defender still use Subsequent First Fire. If so, would the -1 for FFNAM apply for the Subsequent First Fire from the unit which pinned it?

Machine Gun ROF seems simple enough for PFPh and PFPh attacks. Can a MG get multiple attacks from ROF in the AFPh?

If a unit with a MG performs Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire and Final Protective Fire, does ROF apply independently to all three Fires.

As clarification;,A squad with a HMG is firing, could the following happen?
The MG fires twice in Defensive First Fire, losing ROF
It then fires thrice in Subsequent First Fire, losing ROF
It then fires twice in Final Protective Fire

Can these multiple ROF attacks be at different targets (assuming they meet the criteria)?

Can an MG which has been used in Defensive First Fire and maintained its ROF then fire in the DFPh?

Thanks
 

Reepicheep

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Welcome back into the fold! And your questions are most welcome...

Mechashef said:
If a unit moves into a hex (1MF), then successfully creates smoke within that hex (1MF). If a defender wishes to Defensive First Fire, does the smoke affect the roll?
If the defender Defensive Fires at the 1MF spent on entering the hex, the smoke doesn't afffect the roll. But if firing at the MF spent creating smoke within that hex, then yes, the smoke hindrance does affected the roll (as well as negating the FFMO penalty).

Mechashef said:
If a unit moves into a building hex a enemy unit could be entitled to Defensive First Fire and Subsequent First Fire. If Defensive First Fire, pins the moving unit, can the defender still use Subsequent First Fire. If so, would the -1 for FFNAM apply for the Subsequent First Fire from the unit which pinned it?
Yes, No. The unit, despite being pinned, still spent 2 MF entering the building and so can be fired on using First Fire and Subsequent First Fire. I don't believe the -1 FFNAM still applies though, since once pinned, the unit is no longer considered moving.

Mechashef said:
Machine Gun ROF seems simple enough for PFPh and PFPh attacks. Can a MG get multiple attacks from ROF in the AFPh?
In the full ASL rules, A4.41 says that a weapon fired in the AFPh gets only one shot, regardless of ROF. I'm guessing it's the same in the SK.

Mechashef said:
If a unit with a MG performs Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire and Final Protective Fire, does ROF apply independently to all three Fires.
I'm not sure what you mean by independently. Each time it fires, the colored die determines if it's covered by a first fire/final fire marker. Conceivably, it could fire as part of First Fire, Subs. First Fire, FPF and still maintain ROF throughout.

Mechashef said:
As clarification;,A squad with a HMG is firing, could the following happen?
The MG fires twice in Defensive First Fire, losing ROF
It then fires thrice in Subsequent First Fire, losing ROF
It then fires twice in Final Protective Fire
Once the MG loses ROF, it can never regain ROF for subsequent shots in that player turn. It can continue to attack, but only with Sustained Fire penalties and then is always marked with a Final Fire counter. Once so marked, it can only fire again using sustained fire in FPF shots.

Mechashef said:
Can these multiple ROF attacks be at different targets (assuming they meet the criteria)?
Certainly, all other things being equal.

Mechashef said:
Can an MG which has been used in Defensive First Fire and maintained its ROF then fire in the DFPh?
Yes, and can continue to fire in the DFPh until it loses ROF.
 

Mechashef

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Thanks Reepicheep for your execclent and concise reply.

One last question.
When I subscribed to the forum somehow (presumably an error on behalf), I ended up in Belgium instead of Australia (I have visited Belgium, which is a nice plce, but I want to go home :) ).

I have attempted to update my profile, changing Belgium to Australia and click the button down the bottom, but without success. What am I missing.

Thanks again
 

Mechashef

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"Once the MG loses ROF, it can never regain ROF for subsequent shots in that player turn. It can continue to attack, but only with Sustained Fire penalties and then is always marked with a Final Fire counter. Once so marked, it can only fire again using sustained fire in FPF shots."

Does this mean that if an MG fire as part of Defensive First Fire and does not make its ROF roll, it cannot fire as part of Subsequent First Fire or Final Protective Fire?

Remember I'm playing ASLSK (at leats for a few more weeks) which does not have sustained fire.

Thanks
 

Reepicheep

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Mechashef said:
Does this mean that if an MG fire as part of Defensive First Fire and does not make its ROF roll, it cannot fire as part of Subsequent First Fire or Final Protective Fire?
Just reading my copy of the SK rules again...

And SK has a form of sustained fire, just doesn't call it that. Section 4.1 of the SK rules, page 11, last paragraph of that section says... "The B# of a MG using Subsequent First Fire is lowered by two."

So back to your example (quoted above)...

... your MG can fire once more for Subsequent First Fire, but it's FP is halved and it's B# is lowered by two. Afterwards, the MG will be marked with a Final Fire counter.

It could then also attempt an unlimited number of FPF shots if the squad that possesses it Final Protective Fires, and as with Subs. First Fire, it's FP will have halved and B# lowered by two.

Hope this is clear enough.
 

Mechashef

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So if it maintains ROF through Defensive First Fire, will its B# be lowered by two for Subsequent First Fire?

If not, and if it maintains ROF through Subsequent First Fire will the same apply for Final Protective Fire until eventually it does fail its ROF?

Thanks
 

zgrose

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Mechashef said:
So if it maintains ROF through Defensive First Fire, will its B# be lowered by two for Subsequent First Fire?

If not, and if it maintains ROF through Subsequent First Fire will the same apply for Final Protective Fire until eventually it does fail its ROF?

Thanks
Easy way to remember:

If you don't have a First Fire counter on the MG then it has ROF and the shot is still DFF.
Once you lose rate and get the First Fire counter, the MG is now making SFF shots and the B# is reduced by 2. You can't retain ROF and be in SFF.

Once you get the First Fire or Final Fire, all your shots are B#-2 and you don't get rate.
 

zgrose

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Reepicheep said:
Mechashef said:
Machine Gun ROF seems simple enough for PFPh and PFPh attacks. Can a MG get multiple attacks from ROF in the AFPh?
In the full ASL rules, A4.41 says that a weapon fired in the AFPh gets only one shot, regardless of ROF. I'm guessing it's the same in the SK.
AFPh is all of one paragraph and one sentence long and makes no mention of a single shot restriction.
 

Swiftandsure

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Note also that if a MMG has retained ROF, but participates in a Subsequent FF/ FPF FG, it loses the ROF, is marked with a Final Fire counter and incurs the B# -2 penalty...
 

Reepicheep

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Robin said:
Note also that if a MMG has retained ROF, but participates in a Subsequent FF/ FPF FG, it loses the ROF, is marked with a Final Fire counter and incurs the B# -2 penalty...
Yes, I missed that one. Apologies.

The rule in the Starter Kit is found in the last paragraph of Section 3.31 (page 6) and reads... "A unit thus using Subsequent First Fire has its FP halved. After the attack is resolved, flip the First Fire counter over to its Final Fire side for the unit and all its SW (regardless of whether or not they all fired)."
 
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AdrianE

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I think you guys missed a subtlety of defensive fire with the squad/smoke thing.

The ATTACKER declares his move and expenditure of 1MF to enter a new hex.
The DEFENDER then gets to fire versus that specific MF expenditure with FFNAM and/or FFMO if applicable. He gets 1 shot per defending unit as the attacker only spent 1MF.

Then the ATTACKER declares a smoke placement attempt for another MF and rolls a dr to see if he gets smoke. The DEFENDER may shoot but the effects are taken AFTER the expenditure of the MF and thus AFTER the smoke if any gets placed. Assuming the smoke dr is successfull, the DRMs would be FFNAM (if applicable) and +2 smoke. Note that the smoke (or any +ve hindrance) cancells FFMO. Again the Defender may only shoot once per defending unit as only 1MF was spent.

The sequence is exactly the same if you use assault movement.

An MG may get multiple ROF in the Advancing Fire Phase if it was designated an Opportunity Fire in the Prep Fire Phase. A MMG/HMG may not fire in the advancing fire phase if it has moved in the preceeding MPh.

The defensive ROF thing is not quite right either. When a MG fires in defensive fire and it maintains ROF it is NOT marked with a counter. It is like the MG never fired. So you may defensive first fire as many times as you want as long as you maintain ROF. As soon as you lose ROF, then you enter the realm of Subsequent First Fire. Subsequent First Fire is not eligible for ROF. Note that there are restrictions on SFF regarding combining MMC that have first fired and MG's that have not. You get one and only one shot for SFF (with the appropriate penalties) after which you get marked with a Final Fire marker. All other shots after that are final protective fire.
 

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A slightly different twist.

A squad is marked with a first fire counter but the MMG is unmarked -- either has not fired or retained ROF. An enemy unit expends 2 MF at a range eligible for SFF. Can the squad fire the MMG at the first MF expenditure and (assuming loss of ROF) use SFF either with or without the MMG at the second MF expenditure?
 

Reepicheep

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Larry said:
A squad is marked with a first fire counter but the MMG is unmarked -- either has not fired or retained ROF. An enemy unit expends 2 MF at a range eligible for SFF. Can the squad fire the MMG at the first MF expenditure and (assuming loss of ROF) use SFF either with or without the MMG at the second MF expenditure?
Yes, that's certainly permissable.
 

PRchrdsn

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This is why I follow these forums. Thanks, Adrian, for your concise analysis and synopsis of the options. These were good words.
 

zgrose

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Note that in the context of ASLSK there is no such thing as opportunity fire but otherwise an excellent summary of what everyone else was saying.
 

Dr Zaius

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Mechashef said:
When I subscribed to the forum somehow (presumably an error on behalf), I ended up in Belgium instead of Australia (I have visited Belgium, which is a nice plce, but I want to go home :) ).
Fixed. You're Australian again.
 

Mechashef

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Thanks for the help everyone. As an old Squad Leader player, I have found most aspects of the game relatively easy, but the reworking of Defensive Fire was a bit of a shock. It is also not really explained well in the Starter Kit. It probably makes sense if you already know how it works, but it is very difficult to learn just from the Starter Kit.

Thanks agian to everyone.
 

zgrose

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DFF didn't seem that odd to me (no previous ASL experience) but the SW and ROF rules were kind of a pain to work through. Maybe an extra half-page would've given them a bit more space to work with to clarify some of the issues.
 
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