A7.72 - Upper Level Encirclement vs HIP

Tater

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Suppose a multi-story building has a HIP Ruski at level two. The Germans move units to the only two ground floor stairwell locations.

Per A7.7 all eligible locations are marked with an encircled counter. The only eligible locations are those that contain units. So would the Ruski's location have to be marked even though he is HIP?

I searched Q&A but couldn't find anything.
 

Tater

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I'd play as if the Russian player has to make a mental note that his upper-level units are Encircled.
OK...I can understand a house/friendly rule...but based on the rules as written, any eligible location would have to be marked regardless of HIP. For example, a "?" unit location would have to be marked and HIP is treated like "?" except were noted...and there is no exception noted for encirclement.

BTW, I don't have a dog in the hunt...just a curiosity I noticed.
 

Eagle4ty

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I believe the rules state, "A.12 WHITE COUNTERS: All counters printed on a white background can be used by any nationality and are often informational or memory devices only." thus it would seemingly allow a player to dispense with the actual marking of a unit/location with this type of counter in the interests of playability and maintaining the FOW aspect to a degree. By simply noting such a condition offboard or on a side record would be sufficient for almost any player and I believe the rule stated above allows such wiggle room. (just say'n):rolleyes:
 

Tater

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I believe the rules state, "A.12 WHITE COUNTERS: All counters printed on a white background can be used by any nationality and are often informational or memory devices only." thus it would seemingly allow a player to dispense with the actual marking of a unit/location with this type of counter in the interests of playability and maintaining the FOW aspect to a degree. By simply noting such a condition offboard or on a side record would be sufficient for almost any player and I believe the rule stated above allows such wiggle room. (just say'n):rolleyes:
Hmmm...interesting. So would players be OK with just marking down PIN/TI/CC/etc. as a side note rather than placing on board? I certainly see what you are saying, but I don't think most players see a PIN (for example) as an optional placement. A7.8 says "Place a Pin counter on top of the affected unit."...so at least PIN is not optional. I am pretty sure if you look at the actual rules for each of the white counters none of them are optional placement. Not to mention that all those rules for the "white markers" are higher numbered than A.12 so if they say "place" then you would have to...just as A7.7 says to place an Encirclement on all eligible locations.

All-in-all, I am not seeing anything in the rules that would say the Encircled counter isn't placed regardless of HIP/"?". Barring Q&A/errata I think it is pretty clear...like it or not.
 

Sparafucil3

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All-in-all, I am not seeing anything in the rules that would say the Encircled counter isn't placed regardless of HIP/"?". Barring Q&A/errata I think it is pretty clear...like it or not.
I would then mark EVERY potential upper-level Location as encircled whether I have a unit there or not, just like I have to apply Case K to hit the Location whether anything is there or not. JMO. YMMV. -- jim

PS: Upper-level encirclement(A7.72) doesn't seem to affect the Location, it affects the unit. This is different than A7.7 Encirclement. For instance, an Upper-level Encirclement is broken once you have a free path. Normal encirclement is only broken by leaving the Encircled Location. This argues against placement on all the Locations, but I hate rules lawyering which devolves to the "higher numbered rule" which, IMO, is always the last refuge of a weak argument. A.12 is not over-ruled by A7.7. A7.7 can be modified by A.12. A7.7 says place it. A.12 says you don't have to if you don't need it. If I can remember it, I don't need to place it. Since it's broken the second you move away, it should be obvious to all involved, if I place the unit on board and there is no path to the ground, I come on board encircled. If there is a path, I am not encircled. No one loses. No one is "cheated". JMO, YMMV.
 

Eagle4ty

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Hmmm...interesting. So would players be OK with just marking down PIN/TI/CC/etc. as a side note rather than placing on board? I certainly see what you are saying, but I don't think most players see a PIN (for example) as an optional placement. A7.8 says "Place a Pin counter on top of the affected unit."...so at least PIN is not optional. I am pretty sure if you look at the actual rules for each of the white counters none of them are optional placement. Not to mention that all those rules for the "white markers" are higher numbered than A.12 so if they say "place" then you would have to...just as A7.7 says to place an Encirclement on all eligible locations.

All-in-all, I am not seeing anything in the rules that would say the Encircled counter isn't placed regardless of HIP/"?". Barring Q&A/errata I think it is pretty clear...like it or not.
Different strokes for different folks!;)
 

Tater

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I would then mark EVERY potential upper-level Location as encircled whether I have a unit there or not, just like I have to apply Case K to hit the Location whether anything is there or not. JMO. YMMV. -- jim

PS: Upper-level encirclement(A7.72) doesn't seem to affect the Location, it affects the unit. This is different than A7.7 Encirclement. For instance, an Upper-level Encirclement is broken once you have a free path. Normal encirclement is only broken by leaving the Encircled Location. This argues against placement on all the Locations, but I hate rules lawyering which devolves to the "higher numbered rule" which, IMO, is always the last refuge of a weak argument. A.12 is not over-ruled by A7.7. A7.7 can be modified by A.12. A7.7 says place it. A.12 says you don't have to if you don't need it. If I can remember it, I don't need to place it. Since it's broken the second you move away, it should be obvious to all involved, if I place the unit on board and there is no path to the ground, I come on board encircled. If there is a path, I am not encircled. No one loses. No one is "cheated". JMO, YMMV.
Empty locations are not eligible for Encirclement.

The application of A.12 was the weak argument. The individual rules for white markers are not ambiguous about placing the counter. And A.12 never says you don’t place them...you have to stretch A.12 a whole long way to get to “you don’t have to place” the white markers.

It isn’t “cheating” to play by the rules.

All I’m saying is that this looks like a hole.
 

Sparafucil3

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It isn’t “cheating” to play by the rules.
I quote "cheating" because it isn't cheating, it's rules lawyering for an advantage that comes from some silliness in the rules that allows for one side to gain an advantage that is neither intended or reasonable within the context of the game. As I said, since this is Upper-level Encirclement, there is nothing lost by not putting the counter on. Putting the counter on gives one side information outside the context of the game. That to me is distasteful. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
 

cohort

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An argument can be made that a unit only gets an encirclement marker if it is encircled by fire. The relevant passage from the rules dealing with marking an encircled unit reads:

A7.7 A qualifying target Location is thereafter marked with an Encirclement counter ...

This comes after describing the procedures of how a unit becomes encircled by firing at it. Paragraph A7.72 Upper Levels makes no reference to marking an encircled unit and an upper level location is not a qualifying target location. So are you marking it because it is an encircled location or because it is a qualifying target location? If the latter, an upper level encircled unit wouldn't be marked.
 

Larry

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put a first level counter on the two stairwell locations and put an encircled counter on them ... everything from there up is upper-level encircled.
 

Philippe D.

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I read the "information counters only" precision as meaning that if you can remember (or make side notes) everything perfectly, you could play without them and the game would play logically the same.

Would you argue that a Pin counter, or a CX counter, would prevent a player from looking at the top unit counter if he had no LOS to the stack? (I wouldn't)

On the Encirclement question (which is different, because the rules don't call for a marker placement in an apparently empty location) I would also consider the unit to be under a "logical" encirclement. It shouldn't matter much for upper level encirclement, since that's a continuous condition that ends as soon as the condition ends (any time you have to do something with the unit, you will notice that it's under upper level encirclement and apply it), but it could for fire-induced encirclement.
 

Vinnie

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A hidden or concealed vehivle may have its CE status recorded separately. Is this an exception to the general rule, which would require you to place an encircled counter or could you extrapolate from the fact a hidden observer does not get his location marked with a prep fire?
 

klasmalmstrom

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If one can remember the different status I see no need to place counters - if both players agree. I know people who play Red Barricades without putting out Residual FP counters.

Not even sure this is an issue - sure, there might be "hole" in the rules - but it seems no one here plays like that anyway.
 

semenza

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Reading the index definition of Unit coupled with A12.3 " .... by written side record rather than placing them on board" It could be argued that they are not units while not on board. Therefore nothing to mark.
 

Tater

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Based on the totality of replies, I would agree that it is not a hole and that the Encirclement counters wouldn't be placed.
 

semenza

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.............. Or at least that the units are not on board and ..... nothing to mark.

Overall it would be a bad "game thing" if HIP units in the upper levels of printed stairwell buildings were revealed simply by an enemy unit passing through (not even remaining in the case of a single stairwell) the ground level stairwell of the building.

Seth
 

Tater

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.............. Or at least that the units are not on board and ..... nothing to mark.

Overall it would be a bad "game thing" if HIP units in the upper levels of printed stairwell buildings were revealed simply by an enemy unit passing through (not even remaining in the case of a single stairwell) the ground level stairwell of the building.

Seth
I agree...that is why I asked the question...at face value it looked like unforeseen consequences of upper-level encirclement.
 
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