A7.7 Encirclement

[Josh]

Alan and I are playing Hill 621 adn kind of disagree on a rule about encirclement. I just went through this in a ftf game but my opponent might have been wrong also. If V7 adn W3 fire at my MMC with the encirclement counter in W1, is it encirclement?

Thanks for the help, I just want to be sure so my next games won't be too affected.

 

[Jack Dionne]

Yes the unit is encircled as long as the LOS from hex 2V7 crosses the 4W1/2W10 hexside.

 

[Josh]

Bill, are you here? Isn't this the same as my game last week? Or am I out to lunch? That's very possible...

 

[Josh]

I'm looking at the rules and even the examples don't show it as valid but then again, I am not a lawyer.

 

[zgrose]

If by V7 and W3 you mean this it looks like Encirclement to me.

 

[Jack Dionne]

If by V7 and W3 you mean this it looks like Encirclement to me.

That's what I was trying to say without the picture.

 

[Josh]

I understand Jack, what really confused me is I did this against Mike on my last game and was told it wasn't encirclement because since only 2 squads fired, they had to be exactly opposite to each other. I thought Bill and Darren told me this, maybe something was slightly different although I was the one trying to get encirclement and it did looke xactly the same. I wish they were on the forum to tell me why this one is different.

 

[Josh]

On another subject, if I fire my MGs on an AFV as bounding FF during my MPh, can I fire my MA right after?

 

[Fred Ingram]

I understand Jack, what really confused me is I did this against Mike on my last game and was told it wasn't encirclement because since only 2 squads fired, they had to be exactly opposite to each other. I thought Bill and Darren told me this, maybe something was slightly different although I was the one trying to get encirclement and it did looke xactly the same. I wish they were on the forum to tell me why this one is different.

The units shooting do not have to be EXACTLY 180 degress apart, the incoming fire just needs to enter the encircled hex through opposite hexsides.

 

[Josh]

Maybe that was the difference there... Learn something new everyday. Thanks to all for setting me straight. Alan, please forgive me for doubting you

 

[Jack Dionne]

I understand Jack, what really confused me is I did this against Mike on my last game and was told it wasn't encirclement because since only 2 squads fired, they had to be exactly opposite to each other. I thought Bill and Darren told me this, maybe something was slightly different although I was the one trying to get encirclement and it did looke xactly the same. I wish they were on the forum to tell me why this one is different.

If I don't know for sure, I will tell you I don't know for sure. But if I know, that's a different story. Just because someone has a bit more experience than you playing ASL, dosn't mean there are right all the time. Look at me. I was playing the building control rules wrong.
Can you help me with my strafing post?

 

[Ole Boe]

The rule reference is A7.7. Although the example diagram may indicate that the attacker's must be directly opposite of each other, the actual rule text says (the applicable condition): "Encirclement occurs if the firer's LOS enters the target Location ... b) with exactly three target-hex vertices between them in both clockwise and counter clockwise directions;"

In Jack's picture, this requirement is met. The firers have vertices W1- (W10/X10, X10/X1, X1/W2) in clockwise direction from the firer in V7, and vertices W1- (W10/V10, V10/V1, V1/W2) in counterclockwise direction.

So the unit is encircled.

 

[alanp]

thanks, all, for the replies.

It's not at all an important part of the scenario, but since I'm helping Josh learn the ropes, it's good to get the point correct.

Ole's rules citation is exactly what I was trying to say to Josh--Ole just said it more clearly (or, maybe Josh just believes Ole and me over his other helpers. . . however, the words in the rules are quite specific and the diagrams are simply generic "incoming LOS's from various sides of the target")

I couldn't get a diagram to look like zgrose's; shows a limit to PBeM teaching over ftf!

 

[Josh]

If I don't know for sure, I will tell you I don't know for sure. But if I know, that's a different story. Just because someone has a bit more experience than you playing ASL, dosn't mean there are right all the time. Look at me. I was playing the building control rules wrong.
Can you help me with my strafing post?

I wasn't doubting you Jack. I realize now that the problem was that we only looked at the example picture last week and didn't actually read the rule thoroughly and being a new guy, I'm probably remembering wrong, I am getting old now, retirement coming very very soon.

 

[Josh]

thanks, all, for the replies.

It's not at all an important part of the scenario, but since I'm helping Josh learn the ropes, it's good to get the point correct.

Ole's rules citation is exactly what I was trying to say to Josh--Ole just said it more clearly (or, maybe Josh just believes Ole and me over his other helpers. . . however, the words in the rules are quite specific and the diagrams are simply generic "incoming LOS's from various sides of the target")

I couldn't get a diagram to look like zgrose's; shows a limit to PBeM teaching over ftf!

I also find it hard to get the diagram nice and big. Actually, Ole's explanantion, even if true, doesn't make much sense to me. I will have to get my real board and look at the hex side explanation better. Reading it in the post sounds like giberish right now. Computers make it hard for me sometimes. As I said, sorry if I doubted anyone :shock: My memory must have been failing from my last game...

True, it does not make a difference in this scenario, watch out in the upcoming turn

 

[alanp]

case b means this: imagine using your finger to trace the hex-side around from the two points that the fire entered the target hex; does your finger cross 3 vertices when going around each way? then you're encircled.

 

[Ole Boe]

...or another explanation of case b:

Does the two two firers's LOF enter the hex through two opposite hexsides, excluding the vertices?

 

[Josh]

Ok, makes a lot more sense now. Thanks Ole and Alan for this, now it is stored properly in memory for future use.