A4.63 Fire Lanes and Dash

ATStatham

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Relative newbie question using 2nd ed RB.

This question refers to A4.63 and A9.22 / A9.222 / A9.223. I did not find any reference to dash in the A9.22 and A9.222 sections which I thought was odd.

It is the German MPh.
A 4-6-7 in a building wants to dash across the road to another building hex containing (2) Russian "?" counters. Three hexes away is a Soviet 4-4-7/MMG. The 4-4-7/MMG has an LOS to the road hex but neither of the building hexes.

The 4-6-7 declares dash and enters the street. The 4-4-7 First Fires using just the MMG by announcing a Fire Lane.

?? Since the Fire Lane did not exist before the 4-6-7 declared the dash does the Fire Lane cancel out the Area Fire benefit of the Dash??

?? Can the 4-4-7/MMG use its squad inherent FP to fire at the 4-6-7 in the road location as part of the Fire Lane?? As a separate First Fire attack??

?? Next question, assumming the 4-6-7 survives First Fire in the road hex and attempts to enter the building but can not because one of the "?" counters is revealed to be a 4-4-7. Is the 4-6-7 subject to the Fire Lane residual FP even though it did not leave it hex?? [I think the answers is YES per A8.2]

?? Is this right?: The 4-4-7/MMG MAY NOT use its squad inherent FP to SFF on 4-6-7 because A9.223 states the manning infantry can only use SFF if a TPBF situation

Is this right?: The newly revealed 4-4-7 can fire on the 4-6-7 using PBF, dash does not apply, DRM = -2, and the 4-6-7 is considered to have expended 2 MP because it tried to enter a building thus the 4-4-7 can Fire Fire and SFF?

Final question: Does the 4-4-7/MMG have freedom of action to First Fire at other targets if the MMG is marked with a Fire Lane marker?

Thanks,

Alan
 

Fred Ingram

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If you are placing a fire lane against a unit executing a dash, then the original firepower of that firelane is halved (and thus the firepower of the firelane is reduced). :(

However, if a unit is attempting to dash through an exisiting firelane, the firepower is NOT reduced. :devil:
 

Jack Dionne

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USWI001 said:
If you are placing a fire lane against a unit executing a dash, then the original firepower of that firelane is halved (and thus the firepower of the firelane is reduced). :(

However, if a unit is attempting to dash through an exisiting firelane, the firepower is NOT reduced. :devil:
I don't know that's why I am asking, are you sure? I don't have my rulebook here now.
 

Jazz

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USWI001 said:
If you are placing a fire lane against a unit executing a dash, then the original firepower of that firelane is halved (and thus the firepower of the firelane is reduced). :(

However, if a unit is attempting to dash through an exisiting firelane, the firepower is NOT reduced. :devil:
Actually, I think not. :D

What you say is true for regular residual FP, but to quote the rule for firelanes:

A9.22(towards the bottom of the section) ......A Fire Lane's Residual FP is equal to the FP column to the left of the FP column normally used by that MG's FP [EXC: PBF doubles the reduced FP in the ADJACENT hex; Fire Lane Residual FP TPBF is NA (9.223)].....

No reference is made to the FP of the original attack (as is done with the rule for run-of-the-mill residual).

Jazz
 

griffitz62

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The MG would DFF as area fire against the Dashing unit and then the Fire Lane FP counter would be placed at a level one lower than the normal FP column used by the MG. In your case, the MMG would fire as DFF on the '2' coulumn (4FP divided by 2 for the Dash) and then a 2FP Fire Lane counter would be placed. The 4-4-7 could also make it's own DFF attack at 2FP against the Dashing unit. "Whenever the Defender declares a DFF attack, he may also declare a Fire Lane with that MG..." (9.22). Note the word also in the wording. "If he does declare a Fire Lane, he must place a First/Final counter on the MG and, after resolving that First Fire attack in the normal manner, must also place a Fire Lane Residual FP counter..." (9.22).
If the Dashing unit runs into the ? units, it is forced back into the road and will suffer any Residual and/or Fire Lane FP attacks (even if it was just created) (look at 12.5).
I think the manning MMC can use SFF and still maintain the Fire Lane. "A MG may cancel its Fire Lane in order to gain freedom to fire elsewhere (its manning Infantry may use SFF/FPF after establishing the Fire Lane) only if a TPBF/CC-Reaction-Fire situation occurs..." (9.223). Try reading the sentence without the () and see if that makes more sense.
Yes, the newely revealed unit can PBF on the moving unit and it is not considered Dashing anymore (but is still moving for FFMO/FFNAM purposes).
The 4-4-7 MMC can fire at other targets while the MMG is marked with a Fire Lane but the MMG can't do anything but maintain the Fire Lane.
 

Jazz

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griffitz62 said:
The MG would DFF as area fire against the Dashing unit and then the Fire Lane FP counter would be placed at a level one lower than the normal FP column used by the MG. In your case, the MMG would fire as DFF on the '2' coulumn (4FP divided by 2 for the Dash) and then a 2FP Fire Lane counter would be placed. The 4-4-7 could also make it's own DFF attack at 2FP against the Dashing unit. "Whenever the Defender declares a DFF attack, he may also declare a Fire Lane with that MG..." (9.22). Note the word also in the wording. "If he does declare a Fire Lane, he must place a First/Final counter on the MG and, after resolving that First Fire attack in the normal manner, must also place a Fire Lane Residual FP counter..." (9.22).
If the Dashing unit runs into the ? units, it is forced back into the road and will suffer any Residual and/or Fire Lane FP attacks (even if it was just created) (look at 12.5).
I think the manning MMC can use SFF and still maintain the Fire Lane. "A MG may cancel its Fire Lane in order to gain freedom to fire elsewhere (its manning Infantry may use SFF/FPF after establishing the Fire Lane) only if a TPBF/CC-Reaction-Fire situation occurs..." (9.223). Try reading the sentence without the () and see if that makes more sense.
Yes, the newely revealed unit can PBF on the moving unit and it is not considered Dashing anymore (but is still moving for FFMO/FFNAM purposes).
The 4-4-7 MMC can fire at other targets while the MMG is marked with a Fire Lane but the MMG can't do anything but maintain the Fire Lane.
Correct on the FL FP.

I myself have always been a bit confused by the rules section that deals with what the firing unit can do by way of shooting after laying the fire lane.

What seems to be the way I've seen it played by a number of people who have a reputation of knowing the rules....if the firing unit is a squad, they can first fire (if they didn't when the FL got put down) but they cannot subsequent fire or FPF unless their location is entered (in which case they MUST FPF and cancel the FL). If the unit is a HS, they cannot subsequent unless the location is entered, in which case they must FPF.
Looking at your rules quote above, I guess I would interpret it that way (as opposed to how you've interpreted it?)

Jazz
 

WaterRabbit

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This is correct. Another way to remeber the restrictions is to remember the effect Subsequent First Fire has on MGs.

A8.3 "Whenever a unit uses Subsequent First Fire, it must usa all MG/IFE in its possession as Subsequent First Fire or forfeit their use for the remainder of that Player Turn...

A Squad marked with a First Fire counter that has an established Fire Lane does not have freedom to use SFF. If only the MG was marked (i.e. he did not fire group with the MG on the shot that established the fire lane), he may First Fire at some later point. Once he does, he is under the restrictions of A9.223.

During the DFPh, if still marked with a First Fire counter, he may use Final Fire at an adjacent unit. (A same hex enemy unit would have forced him to SFF, thus he would already be marked with a Final Fire counter).
 

tommyl

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ATStatham said:
?? Can the 4-4-7/MMG use its squad inherent FP to fire at the 4-6-7 in the road location as part of the Fire Lane?? As a separate First Fire attack??
Wouldn't A7.55 Mandatory FG apply meaning if the squad is going to use its Inhernet FP it HAS to do it with the MG attack and CANNOT fire separately?
 

Jazz

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tommyl said:
Wouldn't A7.55 Mandatory FG apply meaning if the squad is going to use its Inhernet FP it HAS to do it with the MG attack and CANNOT fire separately?
Only if he's shooting at the same target unit in the same hex, which is the only time mandatory FG applies.

He would still be able to First Fire at another target/location if the squads inherint FP was not marked with FF already.

Jazz
 

WaterRabbit

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tommyl said:
Wouldn't A7.55 Mandatory FG apply meaning if the squad is going to use its Inhernet FP it HAS to do it with the MG attack and CANNOT fire separately?
Yes, if the squad shoots on the same MF as the MG, Mandatory FG would apply. However, there is no requirement that the squad must shoot its inherent FP along with the MG to establish a FL.

So DFF options are:

1) 447 + MMG @ Dashing unit & Establish FL: 8 FP x 1/2 = 4 -2 drm. Place a 1 RFP counter and a 2 FL counter. Mark both squad and MMG with First Fire counter.

2) MMG @ dashing unit & establish FL: 4 x 1/2 - 2 drm. Place 2 FL counter and mark MG with First Fire.

In either case the 467 is rebuffed. So, in the first case, the 467 expends 2 MF in the road and takes a 1 -2 drm attack from the RFP counter and if still present, takes a 2 -2 drm attack from the FL. Russian squad cannot SFF because of A9.223.

In the second case the 467 takes a 2 -2 drm attack from the FL. The Russian squad can now first fire at the unit with a 4 -drm attack and place a 2 RFP fire counter. The squad would now be marked with a First Fire counter.

Finally, the revealed 447 can First Fire on the 467, after it undergoes the residual firepower attacks, for 8 -2 drm followed by 4 -2 drm SFF attack, because the 467 has spent 2 MF in the road Location due to the rebuff.

Also note that if the MG were an HMG the initial FP of the attacks would not change (10 halved is 5, so the 4 column or 6 halved is 3, so the 2 column), but the FL RFP counter would be 4 instead of 2.
 
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