A25.223 Becoming Berserk & Timing.

Eagle4ty

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The above mentioned rule states if a Commissar (or Japanese Leader G1.41) becomes berserk all other friendly infantry also automatically become berserk. What is the timing aspect of this action when the stack is fired upon?

In a current game my opponent caused a Japanese leader to go berserk but had yet to resolve the attack against the MMC it was stacked with. I advised him the attack was now against a berserk MMC because leaders always check for MC first and A25.223 seems to indicate the attendant action of the MMC becoming berserk is concurrent with the leader becoming berserk. However, after mulling it over, I am less sure of the validity of my original stance (though still leaning toward my initial take). Any solid confirmations either way or good arguments to support one position or the other?
 

EagleIV

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You need to resolve the effects of the attack before determining if a unit goes Berserk. See A15.41 "When a leader goes berserk, he must (after first resolving any fire attack vs other targets in that Location) attempt to change any ... other friendly units ... in the same Location to berserk status also."
 

Ed Caswell

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The above mentioned rule states if a Commissar (or Japanese Leader G1.41) becomes berserk all other friendly infantry also automatically become berserk. What is the timing aspect of this action when the stack is fired upon?

In a current game my opponent caused a Japanese leader to go berserk but had yet to resolve the attack against the MMC it was stacked with. I advised him the attack was now against a berserk MMC because leaders always check for MC first and A25.223 seems to indicate the attendant action of the MMC becoming berserk is concurrent with the leader becoming berserk. However, after mulling it over, I am less sure of the validity of my original stance (though still leaning toward my initial take). Any solid confirmations either way or good arguments to support one position or the other?
Rule A15.41 LEADER CONSEQUENCES says, "When a leader goes berserk, he must (after first resolving any fire attack vs any other targets in that Location)..."
Ed
 

Magpie

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"automatically become berserk " not immediately so yes, as the others have said, resolve what you are in the middle of and then on to the next consequence.
 

Binchois

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A little subplot, I am T.Y.'s unfortunate opponent. My U.S.M.C.s dropped HIP to attack the IJA with a double-MG attack across a dense-jungle pond. Against three separate hexes, my shots left behind: hex 1) one berserk squad; hex 2) a couple of pinned enemy HSs; and hex 3) said berserk leader with a newly-striped (or Berserk?) squad. Yes. Two DR2, HoB results! And this was the game's opening salvo.😢

I was inclined to agree with the OP, though EagleIV's citation is interesting (implying that such conversions come after the fire is resolved). Different situation with Commissars and IJA, though.

Unless I see a more conclusive argument, I think I would submit the Q&A to Perry and in the meantime go with your gut, Tom (or just roll for it)!
 

Magpie

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The only difference for Commissars/Japanese is that if they go Berserk all other units in the hex will go Berserk without having to take a NTC.
The requirement to resolve the attack completely doesn't change.
 

Eagle4ty

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A little subplot, I am T.Y.'s unfortunate opponent. My U.S.M.C.s dropped HIP to attack the IJA with a double-MG attack across a dense-jungle pond. Against three separate hexes, my shots left behind: hex 1) one berserk squad; hex 2) a couple of pinned enemy HSs; and hex 3) said berserk leader with a newly-striped (or Berserk?) squad. Yes. Two DR2, HoB results! And this was the game's opening salvo.😢

I was inclined to agree with the OP, though EagleIV's citation is interesting (implying that such conversions come after the fire is resolved). Different situation with Commissars and IJA, though.

Unless I see a more conclusive argument, I think I would submit the Q&A to Perry and in the meantime go with your gut, Tom (or just roll for it)!
I think Ed has a pretty convincing argument (funny I couldn't remember that-probably selective memory), not a big deal striping the IJA MMC, but after thinking about my initial take it just didn't "feel" right.
 
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