A24.4 Smoke Elevation

commissar1969

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In the unofficial Perry sez I found this:

If there is Smoke in F7, is the LOS between E7 and F8 hindered by that smoke? A. Yes

I don't understand why, since in F7, the Smoke is emanating from a hex whose base level of 2. Why would the fire between two level-1 hexes be affected?
 

klasmalmstrom

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Due to B10.1:
"...Inherent Terrain (B.6), whether a one-level Obstacle or Hindrance (e.g., orchard) or a half-level Obstacle (rubble) or Hindrance (crag, wreck) rises from the actual hill depiction (i.e., in a Hill-Orchard hex, LOS that crosses the hill depiction is affected up through level 2; LOS that does not cross the hill depiction is only affected through level 1)...."
 

fanatic+1

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I think because smoke is inherent and settles to the lower level areas on the edges of hill hexes like orchards.
 

jrv

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Note also that in the lower part of the hex the Smoke rises from level one to level three, while in the upper part of the hex it rises from level two to level four. This behavior applies to all sorts of inherent terrain, for example orchards. As a bit of a surprise it applies to wreck hindrance too.

JR
 

commissar1969

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Gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies. Here's a related question.

Assume an original +3 Smoke source in 13Y9 (Elevated Road - NOT a hill). Would the same principle apply? Is the Smoke considered to be at Ground Level, as well?

Same situation. Assume the +2 drifting Smoke counter from a Level 1 source. What would the Smoke modifier (if any) be for a fire attack on Y8 coming from Z9? Would that shot be affected by the smoke at all?
 

jrv

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The same rules apply. Although an elevated road is not exactly a hill, it is a crest line [B5.21].

Drifting SMOKE does not drop down. Its bottom is at the same level as the original SMOKE [A24.61].

JR
 

commissar1969

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The same rules apply. Although an elevated road is not exactly a hill, it is a crest line [B5.21].

Drifting SMOKE does not drop down. Its bottom is at the same level as the original SMOKE [A24.61].

JR
So what would happen to that shot (from 13Y8 to Z9) - would it be hindered by the drifting Smoke or not? (I'm sorry, I don't know how to do screen shots.
 

jrv

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So what would happen to that shot (from 13Y8 to Z9) - would it be hindered by the drifting Smoke or not? (I'm sorry, I don't know how to do screen shots.
8141

I am assuming you are thinking about level one in Y8. Here you are on your own. The rules don't cover cases where LOS goes under terrain. The LOS is clearly affected if the SMOKE in Y9 is original and not drifting. Most players would play the LOS for drifting SMOKE as clear in this case. The situation is a lot more complicated in other cases, e.g. the viewer at level two, the SMOKE drifting at level one, and the target at level zero, with a variety of ranges from the viewer and the target to the SMOKE.

JR
 

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So what would happen to that shot (from 13Y8 to Z9) - would it be hindered by the drifting Smoke or not? (I'm sorry, I don't know how to do screen shots.
Another matter to consider is that if drifting smoke existed in Y9 it would exist at level 1 (at least) since a firing unit in Y8 would have to be at level 1 on the bridge to be able to see Z9 (one cannot be in Crest status in a bridge hex). Though the LOS string is drawn from the center dot of the bridge hex, the unit(s) exist throughout the hex (or location for this instance) and thus does their fire. Thus by necessity their fire must originate or cross the Y8-Y9-Z8 hexspine at level 1 as for game purposes the level of the firer and the target(s) exists throughout their locations and not be a straight line (i.e. diagonal) per-Se from the center dot Level 1 to center dot level 0 . Since that fire would necessarily touch the hexspine noted and thus be part of both the firing location as well as the location of the drifting smoke (see definition of Hex & Location in the Index; see also Base Level), the shot would be hindered by such.
 

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Just to check,

the Smoke in Y9 starts at Level 0 and rises to Level 2 ?
Smoke drifting to Y8 would stay at Level 0 rising to Level 2 but wouldn't fall to Level -1 into the stream?

Is that correct ?
 

jrv

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Just to check,

the Smoke in Y9 starts at Level 0 and rises to Level 2 ?
Smoke drifting to Y8 would stay at Level 0 rising to Level 2 but wouldn't fall to Level -1 into the stream?

Is that correct ?
Some of SMOKE in Y9 starts at level zero and rises to level two. Some starts at level one and rises to level three.

SMOKE drifting from an original SMOKE source in Y9 rises from level one to level three and would not fall to level zero or to level minus one.

JR
 

Magpie

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Some of SMOKE in Y9 starts at level zero and rises to level two. Some starts at level one and rises to level three.

SMOKE drifting from an original SMOKE source in Y9 rises from level one to level three and would not fall to level zero or to level minus one.

JR

I thought all smoke rose from the one base level ?
 

jrv

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I thought all smoke rose from the one base level ?
Q&A have made it (somewhat) clear that, like all inherent terrain, SMOKE rises from the level of the ground under it. See B10.1, "Inherent Terrain .... rises from the actual hill depiction." Although that means that there can be an inherent hindrance at a lower (or in some odd cases, higher) level than the base level of the hex, in the case of SMOKE drifting from such an original source the SMOKE rises from the base level of the hex.

q&a said:
A24.4, A24.61, & B10.1 If there is Smoke in F7, is the LOS between E7 and F8 hindered by that smoke?
A. Yes
If there is original Smoke in F7 that drifts to F8 and F9, is the LOS between E9 and G9 hindered by that drifting Smoke?
A. No
Is the base level of the drifting smoke Level 1 or Level 2?
A. Level 2
The hexes are all on board 2.

JR
 
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Magpie

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Hills would be a different situation to other terrain types I think so I don't see an elevated road pushing smoke to a higher level.

The Q&A answers above are fair enough if you consider what a hill looks like and the "level 1" colours of F7 are a transition between level 1 and level 2 so it makes sense to put the smoke at the higher level but still have the hinderance in the orginal hex.

Smaller terrain features, like an elevated road within the hex, I feel are more akin to a building, which doesn't cause the smoke to be on the roof.
 

Eagle4ty

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Hills would be a different situation to other terrain types I think so I don't see an elevated road pushing smoke to a higher level.

The Q&A answers above are fair enough if you consider what a hill looks like and the "level 1" colours of F7 are a transition between level 1 and level 2 so it makes sense to put the smoke at the higher level but still have the hinderance in the orginal hex.

Smaller terrain features, like an elevated road within the hex, I feel are more akin to a building, which doesn't cause the smoke to be on the roof.
I do like the reasoning, but it's the base level of the hex/location that defines where the SMOKE emanates from and in the case of of an El-Road that's at level 1 (in most cases).
 

Magpie

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I do like the reasoning, but it's the base level of the hex/location that defines where the SMOKE emanates from and in the case of of an El-Road that's at level 1 (in most cases).
It's actually the GROUND level, not base level, I guess that depends on the significance of that distinction.
 
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Eagle4ty

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It's actually the GROUND level, not base level, I guess that depends on the significance of that distinction.
There really isn't a definition of ground level as mentioned in the ASLRB but using C1 as a guide for OBA/Indirect fire which would include SMOKE missions (C1.71), it does speak of Base Level which is defined in the Index and what I predicated my answer upon. As I have intimated, I do like your reasoning and somewhat agree with it but do not feel it is supported by the rules as stated - at least to the point of determining the "starting" (not defined I know) level of drifting smoke which I would be inclined to believe would be determined to be the Base Level of the hex (in the picture provided above it would be at level 1 of hex Y9). I believe that using this methodology prevents any really strange occurrences of determining the exact "game" height a SMOKE will rise to especially if one were to incorporate Chapter B Footnote 3A, though agreeing that SMOKE certainly will exist at the higher and lower elevations of a crest hex (a house rule if you will) and the same could be said for the elevated road.
 

Magpie

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I think Ground Level is used to be explicitly different to Base Level.
I take that to mean not the lowest level location, but rather the lowest ground level in the hex i.e. those areas which are not specific locations as such but are at a different level to the other features in the hex. The elevated road being the perfect example of that in that there is no separate location at level 0 but that level 0 does exist as per the LOS rules.

I don't understand what you mean by Footnote 3A though? Entrenchments don't create a lower level as such
 
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