A15.2, A18.2, and Chapter O CG11.

BattleSchool

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If a leader is created during CC by a (Fanatic) Russian MMC in a Factory Location, does the leader remain Fanatic, even if it subsequently leaves the Factory? IOW, is its Fanaticism permanent?

A15.21 & A18.2
If a hero/leader is created from a Fanatic unit, is that SMC Fanatic too?

A. Yes. Note, however, that a Heat of Battle DR that results in both Battle Hardening of, and the creation of a hero from, a non-Fanatic MMC does not create a Fanatic hero (because the hero was not created from a Fanatic unit; rather the Fanaticism and Hero Creation occurred simultaneously). [An95w; An96; Mw]
CG11. RUSSIAN FANATICISM:
Each non-prisoner Russian Personnel unit in a Factory hex [EXC: if in a Sewer Location, or if currently in Bypass]is considered Fanatic (A10.8).17 If entering from outside the Factory it becomes Fanatic immediately, prior to all Defensive First Fire against it. If wishing to advance out of a Factory in order to CC an AFV, it need not take a PAATC since it is Fanatic when required to take it. A Russian unit already Fanatic receives no further benefit. Rubble occurring in an original Factory hex is still considered part of that Factory for purposes of this rule.
 

ScottRomanowski

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I think using the Rules As Written, yes, it would be permanently fanatic, but I think that was an oversight and if you submitted a Q&A the answer would be "no", the leader isn't created with a Fanatic counter on top of it.
 

EagleIV

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My question, is the Russian squad Fanatic only because it is in the factory, or was there a Fanatic counter on the squad from a previous HOB result? The leader that is created would be marked (or not actually marked) the same way, so basically I agree with Scott.
 

BattleSchool

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I put "Fanatic" in parenthesis to indicate that the MMC was "Fanatic" by virtue of CG11. only.

Given that the leader was created when the MMC was in a conditional "Fanatic state," I wondered if the leader's Fanaticism would likewise be conditional. However, I'm less sure the more I think about it, certainly in light of the Q&A above (and the 2nd ed. rule below).

CG11. points direcly to A10.8. This suggests to me that "a non-prisoner Russian Personnel unit in a Factory hex" is not only Fanatic in the full sense of the rule, but also capable (in the case of an MMC) of creating a bonafide Fanatic leader in CC, provided it does so while conditionally Fanatic.

A more interesting question is whether a "Fanatic" Russian MMC conducting CCRF could possibly create a Fanatic leader while temporarily "outside" the Factory. I'm leaning toward yes.

As for the lack of a Fanatic counter on the MMC in conferring permanent Fanatic status on the leader, this isn't addressed in CG11. Although the rule has an image of a Fanatic counter beside it, there's nothing in CG11. explictily telling us to place a Fanatic counter on a Russian unit that qualifies for Fanaticism.

One might argue that this was deliberate in order to avoid added clutter. But A10.8 doesn't say anything about marking a Fanatic unit either. It does say that "A SMC created from an already Fanatic MMC (15.21,18.2) is also Fanatic." (I missed that early, having dived directly into Q&A for an answer.)

FWIW, I don't think this changes RF scenarios and CG in any significant way. The Russians are perpetually short of leaders. Moreover, Fanatic status goes poof in the Refit Phase of a CG when Fanatic counters are removed in para g of O11.602.


A10.8 FANATICISM:
Fanaticism is evoked only by SSR or Battle Hardening to depict particularly heroic or desperate performances in a particular situation. A SMC created from an already Fanatic MMC (15.21,18.2) is also Fanatic. Any unit classified as Fanatic has both its normal and broken Morale Levels increased by one and is not subject to Cowering, surrendering by the RtPh method (15.5 & 20.21), or PAATC. Fanatic troops are not subject to Disruption, although they can be Reduced/broken normally for all purposes of Unit Substitution (19.13).
 

apbills

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My take would be that the leader is bestowed the same fanatic status as the MMC it was created from - which means it is limited to the same restrictions the SSR bestows - which in turn means it is not permanently fanatic, rather it is only fanatic while in the factory. Like Scott, I am sure a Q&A would result in the same take, and would not generate errata.

Trying to parse the A10.8 rule by ignoring the SSR's limitations on fanaticism (the very rule that grants it to begin with) in order to somehow "discover" an advantageous loophole is silly.

I completely disagree with the premise that a created leader has permanent fanatic status, regardless, for the CCRF question, D7.21 indicates there is no change to the normal CC rules, meaning the MMC would be exempt from the PAATC while in the factory, but conducts the CC attack outside said factory, meaning it is not fanatic while actually conducting the attack - although once the attack is over, if a leader was created, it would be with the MMC back in the factory and would be considered fanatic by CG11.

Edit: "CG11. points direcly to A10.8" is not really correct, rather it references A10.8. Why? Because when CG11 states "is considered Fanatic (A10.8)." rule A10.8 defines what Fanatic is.
 
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BattleSchool

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Not looking for a loophole. I'm making a case for my opponent, who is unaware of the state of a leader he created during CC. His leader has since broken and routed out of the Factory. Between sessions I began to wonder if this SMC was still Fanatic, hence my question. I wanted to know what others thought before I brought it up with him when we resume later this week.

I hadn't given any thought to how Russian Fanaticism was indicated in RF until now. (I haven't played RB in decades, and this is my first kick at the RO cat.) I see now that there needs to be a convention whereby only unconditionally Fanatic Russian units are marked with a Fanatic counter. We had been marking Russian units Fanatic on VASL because we occasionally forgot that they had increased Morale while in a Factory. Toggling the Fanatic tag on and off as units entered and exited seemed like a good workaround. This event marked the first time in RO5 that the Russians had spawned a nonconditionally Fanatic unit.

I agree with Alan's reasoning overall, not least the CCRF question. But as Scott said, the RAW don't address this rare occurrence and therefore the leader's Fanaticism would be permanent. So I'll give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and let this leader remain Fanatic for the duration of the scenario.

Thanks for the replies.
 

Eagle4ty

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Not looking for a loophole. I'm making a case for my opponent, who is unaware of the state of a leader he created during CC. His leader has since broken and routed out of the Factory. Between sessions I began to wonder if this SMC was still Fanatic, hence my question. I wanted to know what others thought before I brought it up with him when we resume later this week.

I hadn't given any thought to how Russian Fanaticism was indicated in RF until now. (I haven't played RB in decades, and this is my first kick at the RO cat.) I see now that there needs to be a convention whereby only unconditionally Fanatic Russian units are marked with a Fanatic counter. We had been marking Russian units Fanatic on VASL because we occasionally forgot that they had increased Morale while in a Factory. Toggling the Fanatic tag on and off as units entered and exited seemed like a good workaround. This event marked the first time in RO5 that the Russians had spawned a nonconditionally Fanatic unit.

I agree with Alan's reasoning overall, not least the CCRF question. But as Scott said, the RAW don't address this rare occurrence and therefore the leader's Fanaticism would be permanent. So I'll give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and let this leader remain Fanatic for the duration of the scenario.

Thanks for the replies.
Don't encourage poor performance or misrepresenting a rule. They're bound to remember it in the misinterpreted fashion and will continue to use it in this fashion even after it has been proven to be incorrect. Being tough on the rules isn't being a poor sport, it's being correct.
 

BattleSchool

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Don't encourage poor performance or misrepresenting a rule. They're bound to remember it in the misinterpreted fashion and will continue to use it in this fashion even after it has been proven to be incorrect. Being tough on the rules isn't being a poor sport, it's being correct.
Fair enough. I'll leave things as they are and not mention the leader. If he brings it up, I'll refer him to this thread.
 

Michael R

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I suggest putting a Fanatic counter or two in the building as a memory aid, rather than making each unit look fanatic.
 
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