A12.34 Hidden Guns, B17.4 Crag, and C11.2 Emplacement

[BattleSchool]

May an 81mm MTR set up HIP in a crag hex?

A12.34 HIDDEN GUNS: An Emplaced (C11.2) non-vehicular Gun and its manning crew/HS [EXC: if possessing a non-inherent SW] may always use HIP if it sets up (i.e., starts the scenario) in Concealment Terrain, even if in the LOS of an enemy unit. An Emplaced Gun may also always use HIP if not in Concealment Terrain, provided it sets up out of the LOS of all enemy ground units.

B17.4 ...Vehicles and 5/8" ordnance counters may never occupy a crag hex [EXC: dm mortars may be portaged into/out of a crag hex, and may also be assembled/fired from it].

C11.2 EMPLACEMENT: ...A Gun can never be Emplaced on a paved road, bridge, runway, Rooftop, or in Bamboo...

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I don't see why not. It can enter during play (albeit in dm form), so it can set up there (IMO).

 

[jrv]

Crag is not concealment terrain, so even if set up HIP there a Gun would be placed on board concealed on LOS.

JR

 

[Robin Reeve]

So it could then set up emplaced in a crag ?

 

[BattleSchool]

So it could then set up emplaced in a crag?

Apparently so, as there is no restriction in C11.2.

Follow-up question related to HIP and emplacement:

Any reason why an M2 4.2-in. Mortar cannot set up HIP in a Lumberyard?

 

[Vinnie]

Apparently so, as there is no restriction in C11.2.

Follow-up question related to HIP and emplacement:

Any reason why an M2 4.2-in. Mortar cannot set up HIP in a Lumberyard?

Don't see any reason why not.

 

[BattleSchool]

Don't see any reason why not.

How about a T25 155mm Mortar, a 160mm PM obr.38, or a Type 97 Medium Close-Attack Gun in a lumberyard? None of these are large targets (C2.271).

It appears that an AT Gun that is not a large target (e.g. 76mm OQF 17-Pounder) may set up in a lumberyard hex, but not a mortar with a calibre > 120mm (B23.423).

To sum up then, a mortar with a calibre ≤ 82mm (A9.8 and B17.4) may set up in crag, while a mortar with a calibre ≤ 120mm may set up in a lumberyard. In both cases these mortars may set up HIP (and therefore emplaced) in crag and lumberyard hexes, respectively.

Have I missed something?

 

[jrv]

In both cases these mortars may set up HIP (and therefore emplaced) in crag and lumberyard hexes, respectively.

The chaining here is backward. The mortars may set up emplaced and therefore HIP. HIP does not allow emplacement; emplacement allows HIP.

JR

 

[Vinnie]

It's not the calibre of the mortar that matters for a lumberyard but the fact it is a SMALL target.

 

[BattleSchool]

The chaining here is backward. The mortars may set up emplaced and therefore HIP. HIP does not allow emplacement; emplacement allows HIP.

JR

I am aware of that. The parenthetical part was for Robin.

But I will defer to the chain of command.

 

[BattleSchool]

It's not the calibre of the mortar that matters for a lumberyard but the fact it is a SMALL target.

Again, I'm aware of that.

But which of these would be harder to site in a lumberyard, the "normal" size 150mm IJA MTR, or the "normal" size 76mm OQF 17-pounder?

In ASL, this AT Gun can set up emplaced in a lumberyard, a building (including an upper level of a fortified building), or rubble, hence the observation that calibre must matter, if "size" is otherwise similar. That, or no one ever considered that maybe there should be another exception for mortars in a lumberyard, namely that they don't have to be a small target to qualify for setup. Just thinking out loud.

B23.211 LUMBERYARD: ...A lumberyard is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects except for Rout (A10.51), Rally (A10.61), Victory Conditions (A26), [errata included] and EC DRM for Kindling/Spreading (25.5) purposes, the ability to fire mortars and AA Guns therefrom, and the hex may not be OVR by vehicles.

 

[Vinnie]

Hey, I do agree with you, Guns are way too easy to swing round in all but open terrain. But thems the rules.

 

[BattleSchool]

Hey, I do agree with you...

Only I'm not sure that I agree with me.

...Guns are way too easy to swing round in all but open terrain. But thems the rules.

I don't have a problem with abstracted nature of CA changes in ASL. I think the penalties for changing CA in woods/buidlings are substantial, although the ability (in most cases) to IF partly offsets these penalties.

But here's puzzler, if a lumberyard is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects, may a lumberyard hex be fortified?

 

[jrv]

But here's puzzler, if a lumberyard is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects, may a lumberyard hex be fortified?

As we have recently learned about bamboo and swamp, being identical does not necessarily mean being identical. You would need to send for a Q&A.

JR

 

[BattleSchool]

As we have recently learned about bamboo and swamp, being identical does not necessarily mean being identical. You would need to send for a Q&A.

JR

If "is treated as" means the same thing as "is considered identical to," we might have a problem. But last I checked, there aren't any lumberyard hexes adjacent to marsh hexes.

 

[jrv]

If "is treated as" means the same thing as "is considered identical to," we might have a problem. But last I checked, there aren't any lumberyard hexes that adjacent to marsh hexes.

Your call.

JR