A12.14 Concealment removal

Jon

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Hi

My esteemed opponent and I have a disagreement on the following situation regarding "?" loss. See attached map.

VASLMap.jpg

It is the American MPh. The concealed squad in J3 declares NAM and enters J2, keeping its "?" counter. The German squad in D1 hopes there may be a LOS and requests a free LOS to try and strip the Ami "?". What is the correct sequence.

My belief is that the LOS is strung. If LOS exists, the German has to then momentarily forfeit its "?" to reveal it is a real unit. The American unit will then lose "?". If there is no LOS, the German player has to reveal nothing and the American continues on his way still concealed.

My opponent feels the sequence is that the German unit has to momentarily drop its "?" to show a real unit prior to stringing the LOS.
To me this seems wrong because if there is NO LOS then the Ami has gained info on the German player, despite the lack of LOS.

Who is correct?

Thanks in advance

Cheers
Jon
 

Brian W

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You have to show a real unit in order to string.
 

aneil1234

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Ive never asked my opponent to reveal a real unit
IF they TELL me its a real unit, It's a REAL unit.

If I can't trust them enough for that, then I don't want to play em

If you really insist on checking. Then Just get them it pick up the counters and show you the BROKEN side.
Saves on doing what always happens ...... which is fat fingers knocking stuff over

But for me.... Its plan A
 

Brian W

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The rules say to show a real unit, and most people in my experience insist on playing it that way, even people who want ASL to be realistic.
 

aneil1234

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Im not saying its NOT a real unit
I just ask my opponent "Is that a real unit ?" and they just say YES or NO.

I don't need them to take the lid off
I trust them at their word

So absolutely by the letter of the rules
Just without the messy "Oh ill take this counter off...... Of $%$$# Ive knocked every thing else over" Moments
 

von Marwitz

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The rules say to show a real unit, and most people in my experience insist on playing it that way, even people who want ASL to be realistic.
I would not reveal a unit unless asked for it. Nor would I ask someone to do it unless I have been challenged to do so before in the game.

Maybe somewhat of a house-rule, but I believe it adds a bit fog of war. Lying in concealment with eyes closed does not make much difference compared to lying there with eyes open.

I trust my opponent. No harm in fog of war. End of story.

Follow up in this context:
To the "revealers" amongst you: Would you think it enough to reveal only the morale factor in such a case? (Which would prove a real unit but not whether it is a full squad or HS for example.)

von Marwitz
 

WuWei

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I was really surprised when an opponent demanded that I show him what type of unit there was under the "?" instead of just accepting my "yes, there is a real unit under it". Since I didn't want him to know that it was just a lousy conscript halfsquad, I let him keep his concealment and kept mine. I didn't like the way he wanted to play it, but it is supported by the rules.
 

jrv

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A12.14, "If the only Good Order enemy ground unit in LOS is itself concealed when a concealed friendly unit makes a concealment-loss action (other than breaking or being Reduced/Wounded), that enemy unit must forfeit its "?" momentarily (to prove that it is not a Dummy) if it opts to force the friendly unit to lose his." I would say this occurs at the moment of "opting", i.e. before the LOS is strung. Beyond the admittedly not-super-clear phrasing, if you don't play that way, can Dummy units start stringing "obviously blocked" LOSes (perhaps to gauge how "blocked" the LOS is in order to gain a better understanding of the LOS from a different point)? What happens if the "obviously blocked" LOS turns out to be open? Beyond this stringing a blocked LOS gains information, and the person wanting it should pay for it.

Those of you playing house rules are welcome to play them; I myself generally play a house rule on this. But Jon asked how the real rule is played, and answering that he should be playing a house rule instead probably isn't that helpful in answering his question.

JR
 

jrv

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I was really surprised when an opponent demanded that I show him what type of unit there was under the "?" instead of just accepting my "yes, there is a real unit under it". Since I didn't want him to know that it was just a lousy conscript halfsquad, I let him keep his concealment and kept mine. I didn't like the way he wanted to play it, but it is supported by the rules.
The way he wanted to play is the "correct" way. *You* are the one who wants to play it differently. Personally I prefer the house rule too but only if my opponent wants to play that way also.

JR
 

BattleSchool

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You mean because he plays by what the rule says? :)
That, and nice guys tend to finish last. :)

Some players are reluctant to reveal the type of unit used to strip concealment, reasoning that declaring it to be a real unit is sufficient to satisfy the requirements of A12.14, namely that it is not a Dummy. Some are also reluctant to reveal the kind of SW/Gun that a unit may possess.

However, A12.14 is explicit in stating that the (challenging) "unit must completely forfeit its "?" momentarily."

When players understand that there is a price to be paid, they become more selective in their attempts to force concealment loss. IMO, this makes for a more interesting game--especially so in the context of the OP's question (and JR's interpretation of what "opt" entails), as well as more interesting than the house-rule alternatives mentioned above.
 

Brian W

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However, A12.14 is explicit in stating that the (challenging) "unit must completely forfeit its "?" momentarily."
Yes, it used to say something different but there were questions about what had to be revealed; some believed that all that had to be revealed was proof of a real unit (e.g. enough of the silhouette to show a non-dummy), but MMP chose to change it have to reveal the unit and weapons possessed. Note, that revealing the broken side of a unit is not sufficient under the rule.
 

Brian W

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But Jon asked how the real rule is played, and answering that he should be playing a house rule instead probably isn't that helpful in answering his question.
The question was answered before any of that came up. If these threads are strictly limited to answering questions without divergence, the world would be a poorer place.

However, I think that discussion should not be framed in terms of "trusting" your opponent.
 

shirlfactor

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The rules are designed for a game. So knowing you have to reveal your unit to even check for los will possibly change somebody's strategy. Even if you don't have to reveal by showing the unit and just say to the opponent " the concealed 458 in hex whatever is checking los to hex whatever should be good enough if you're playing a friend or someone you know . But if you're playing in a tourney, league , or someone you don't know I don't see a problem asking them to play this situation by the book. A lot of this game is about information. It's just like running a hs into an opponents los or their actual hex on purpose. It forces the opponent to decide to reveal and shoot or stay concealed and wait for a juicer target. By having to reveal the unit for the los check You can find out a lot. Is it a elite unit, why is he there. If I run my hs and the ? Doesnt reveal itself is it a dummy or too important to reveal. What's My opponents OB force , maybe he has 6 dummy question marks , 3 sw's , and 2 leaders, by what's revealed under the concealment markers does that help me figure out where the rest of his forces really are. I always look at the scenario card before and through out the scenario to deduce where and what things may be . Some people might call it gamey but isn't that what ASL really is?
 
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klasmalmstrom

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I don't think any possssed SW/Guns/etc. has to be revealed...just what type of unit.
 

klasmalmstrom

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The rules are designed for a game. So knowing you have to reveal your unit to even check for los will possibly change somebody's strategy. Even if you don't have to reveal by showing the unit and just say to the opponent " the concealed 458 with a mmg in hex whatever is checking los to hex whatever should be good enough if you're playing a friend or someone you know . But if you're playing in a tourney, league , or someone you don't know I don't see a problem asking them to play this situation by the book. A lot of this game is about information. By having to reveal the unit for the los check I can find out a lot. Is it a elite unit, why is he over there, my opponent has so many mg's I know there's 1 here or his 1 bazooka is there . My opponent has 6 dummy question marks , 3 sw's , and 2 leaders, so I can make a better guess where the dummy stacks are. I always look at the scenario card before and through out the scenario to deduce where and what things are. Some people might call it gamey but isn't that what ASL really is?
I am ok with my opponent just saying what type of unit it is, he doesn't have to show it to me...that, in my book, satisfies "complety reveal", ymmv.
 

shirlfactor

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The rules are designed for a game. So knowing you have to reveal your unit to even check for los will possibly change somebody's strategy. Even if you don't have to reveal by showing the unit and just say to the opponent " the concealed 458 with a mmg in hex whatever is checking los to hex whatever should be good enough if you're playing a friend or someone you know . But if you're playing in a tourney, league , or someone you don't know I don't see a problem asking them to play this situation by the book. A lot of this game is about information. By having to reveal the unit for the los check I can find out a lot. Is it a elite unit, why is he over there, my opponent has so many mg's I know there's 1 here or his 1 bazooka is there . My opponent has 6 dummy question marks , 3 sw's , and 2 leaders, so I can make a better guess where the dummy stacks are. I always look at the scenario card before and through out the scenario to deduce where and what things are. Some people might call it gamey but isn't that what ASL really is?
Isn't that why some people run hs into ?'s to verify there is something under it.
I don't think any possssed SW/Guns/etc. has to be revealed...just what type of unit.
your correct. I was trying to post too quickly and with too much to say at once lol
 

Brian W

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I don't think any possssed SW/Guns/etc. has to be revealed...just what type of unit.
I think forfeiting concealment includes SW/Guns possessed, and the unit itself, not just what type of unit it is. We all play with unspoken house rules, which are important to go over before the game, and which I rarely remember to do in my dotage.
 
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