A12.121 Advance into Fortified Location Prevented

aslwynn

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Does a unit attempting to Advance into a Fort lose its concealment when it is prevented from doing so by a unit in the Fort which, per a Perry Sez, does retain its Concealment.
 

Wayne

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Yes.

Per Concealment Loss/Gain Table, Note A,"...is forced back to its last Location via Detection (A12.15)..."
which ordinarily pertains to the MPh but, re Fortified Buildings, applies also WRT the APh:
eASLRB said:
B23.922 ENTRY: Infantry may not enter a Fortified Building Location during any phase if an unpinned, Good Order, armed enemy squad (or its equivalent) is inside [EXC: Breach; 23.9221]. A berserk unit must remain in the adjacent hex attacking it in its AFPh/DFPh until the occupants have been pinned, broken, or Reduced sufficiently to allow it to enter (or until another enemy unit becomes adjacent to it, in which case the berserk unit must charge this new unit). An Infantry unit which attempts to move or advance into a Fortified Building Location occupied by such a squad loses that MPh or APh capability for that turn and must remain in its present hex during that phase. The MF expended (not lost) in an unsuccessful entry attempt are considered expended in its present hex for purposes of Residual FP (A12.15), Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire, or FPF; however, once all such fire is completed, the unit’s MPh is over and it is no longer a target for such attacks. Loss of concealment rules (A12.15) apply even though the Fortified Location cannot be entered.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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Does a unit attempting to Advance into a Fort lose its concealment when it is prevented from doing so by a unit in the Fort which, per a Perry Sez, does retain its Concealment.
I'm not sure...per this Q&A the unit inside the FBL does not lose "?" - so I am not sure the unit trying to advance in does either....

A12.15 & B23.922
There is Concealed squad in a yet unrevealed Fortified Building Location. During the Advance Phase, an enemy Infantry unit
attempts to Advance into this Fortified Building Location. Is it correct, that the Fortified Building Location would be revealed but
the Concealment of the squad in the Fortified Building Location is retained because the attempted entry is happening during the
Advance Phase?
A. The squad would be temporarily revealed to proof its existence and then retain concealment.

I think normal detection - A12.15 - rules only applies for movment - not advance:
12.15 DETECTION: Concealment can also be lost due to attempted enemy movement (not advance) into a concealed unit’s Location...
 

aslwynn

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I'm not sure...per this Q&A the unit inside the FBL does not lose "?" - so I am not sure the unit trying to advance in does either....

A12.15 & B23.922
There is Concealed squad in a yet unrevealed Fortified Building Location. During the Advance Phase, an enemy Infantry unit
attempts to Advance into this Fortified Building Location. Is it correct, that the Fortified Building Location would be revealed but
the Concealment of the squad in the Fortified Building Location is retained because the attempted entry is happening during the
Advance Phase?
A. The squad would be temporarily revealed to proof its existence and then retain concealment.

I think normal detection - A12.15 - rules only applies for movment - not advance:
12.15 DETECTION: Concealment can also be lost due to attempted enemy movement (not advance) into a concealed unit’s Location...
Yes, that's the Q&A we found and how we played it - we left the Advancing unit remain Concealed. The question seemed to us to be is attempting to Advance in but failing to do so included in 'any other action'.
 

klasmalmstrom

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The question seemed to us to be is attempting to Advance in but failing to do so included in 'any other action'.
Interesting question....might have to send that one to MMP for a Q&A clarification...
 

Wayne

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I'm not sure...per this Q&A the unit inside the FBL does not lose "?" - so I am not sure the unit trying to advance in does either....
The last sentence (especially) of higher-numbered rule B23.922 makes clear that the Advancing unit generally loses ? in this case. My post above.

[And that is certainly congruent w/common sense.]

B23.922: ...An Infantry unit which attempts to ... advance into a Fortified Building Location ... loses that ... APh capability(.) ... Loss of concealment rules (A12.15) apply even though the Fortified Location cannot be entered.

The last sentence is unconditional, meaning it applies in both the MPh =and= APh (re Fortified Building Locations).

Reads crystal clear to me.
Interesting question....might have to send that one to MMP for a Q&A clarification...
Thank you.
 

apbills

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I am not so sure it is crystal clear. The paragraph has multiple sentences all of which are not clearly related.

23.922 ENTRY: Infantry may not enter a Fortified Building Location during any phase if an unpinned, Good Order, armed enemy squad (or its equivalent) is inside [EXC: Breach; 23.9221]. A berserk unit must remain in the adjacent hex attacking it in its AFPh/DFPh until the occupants have been pinned, broken, or Reduced sufficiently to allow it to enter (or until another enemy unit becomes adjacent to it, in which case the berserk unit must charge this new unit). An Infantry unit which attempts to move or advance into a Fortified Building Location occupied by such a squad loses that MPh or APh capability for that turn and must remain in its present hex during that phase. The MF expended (not lost) in an unsuccessful entry attempt are considered expended in its present hex for purposes of Residual FP (A12.15), Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire, or FPF; however, once all such fire is completed, the unit's MPh is over and it is no longer a target for such attacks. Loss of concealment rules (A12.15) apply even though the Fortified Location cannot be entered.

The sentence in red is specific about both MPh/APh and remaining in that hex. The next sentence, in blue, is specific to movement. The last sentence does not state the provisions of A12.15 for movement are extended to advance, rather it states you apply A12.15 even though you don't actually enter the hex. To me that makes it crystal clear that a unit advancing into the fortified location remains concealed, since per A12.15 advancing units normally keep concealment and the only caveat is that those rules apply even though you don't get to actually enter that Location. So if we apply A12.15 to the advancing unit it remains concealed.
 

Doug Leslie

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A12.15 only deals with the situation where a unit attempts to enter a fortified building during the movement phase.

12.15 DETECTION: Concealment can also be lost due to attempted enemy movement (not advance) into a concealed unit's Location.

I think that B23.922 has to be read accordingly. The only circumstance listed in the concealment loss table where movement in the APh causes loss of concealment is where the hex entered is open ground. Advance onto a panji counter should probably be added to this but the table was created before Chapter G was written.
 

cohort

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My reading is that the advancing unit's concealment loss would depend on whether it was in open ground or not. The MF are considered spent in the hex it was advancing from. If that happens to be open ground, then concealment is lost for advancing into open ground.

Also, per A12.15 "A unit forced back to an entrenchment/shellhole Location can derive no TEM benefit therefrom vs any ensuing Defensive First Fire, although it can for any Defensive Final Fire or subsequent attacks." Therefore entrenchments and shellholes would be treated like open ground.

However I would think that a unit trying to advance into a fortified cellar from a directly connecting trench would get the benefit of the entrenchment and not be considered in open ground.
 

apbills

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Like I said, perhaps not as crystal clear as it was thought. There are 3 different interpretations in the last 4 posts, although I am placing my interpretation in with Doug as I believe that if during the advance phase you would lose concealment for an advance into your Location, you would lose it if you tried to advance into an ADJACENT Location and got bumped back into your same Location.
 

Larry

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A12.15 only deals with the situation where a unit attempts to enter a fortified building during the movement phase.

12.15 DETECTION: Concealment can also be lost due to attempted enemy movement (not advance) into a concealed unit's Location.

I think that B23.922 has to be read accordingly. The only circumstance listed in the concealment loss table where movement in the APh causes loss of concealment is where the hex entered is open ground. Advance onto a panji counter should probably be added to this but the table was created before Chapter G was written published.
change the word to published. Maybe finalized. But we have had iterations of the RB after G was written, published, finalized, and revised.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Q&A.

 
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