A to Q on disrupted units which become fanatic when routing to a RB factory

Robin Reeve

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Read the title of the thread.
 

Simon62

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Apologies - here it is:

We are playing Red Barricades and a unit in a open hex has become disrupted - during the rout phase it fulfils the requirements allowing it to rout and it's valid rout path is to a factory.

Once routed to the factory the RB special rules say that the unit immediately becomes fanatic, however, fanatic units cannot be disrupted what happens in the case:

a) the unit loses it's disruption status as soon as it enters the factory and can thus self rally going forward or rout again if it meets routing requirements in future?

b) The unit remains disrupted until it rallies and then gains fanatic status?
 

STAVKA

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Apologies - here it is:

We are playing Red Barricades and a unit in a open hex has become disrupted - during the rout phase it fulfils the requirements allowing it to rout and it's valid rout path is to a factory.

Once routed to the factory the RB special rules say that the unit immediately becomes fanatic, however, fanatic units cannot be disrupted what happens in the case:

a) the unit loses it's disruption status as soon as it enters the factory and can thus self rally going forward or rout again if it meets routing requirements in future?

b) The unit remains disrupted until it rallies and then gains fanatic status?
Only if a disrupted unit Routs?

Not if unit is disrupted while in bypass of a RB factory hex?
or if a disrupted unit advance inte a RB factory hex during the CC phase.

What a mess, think we play the rules as written. Hope the errata comes soon as our missing Armored Cars PSW 231(8R).
 

Jeff Sewall

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Only if a disrupted unit Routs?

Not if unit is disrupted while in bypass of a RB factory hex?
or if a disrupted unit advance inte a RB factory hex during the CC phase.

What a mess, think we play the rules as written. Hope the errata comes soon as our missing Armored Cars PSW 231(8R).
Did Perry say it applied only if the disrupted unit routs there? No -- he was asked a specific question and he answered it. If you would like to follow up with additional questions to clarify the situations you are unsure about, here is the email address: asl_qa@multimanpublishing.com.
 

STAVKA

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It will require significant errata for a disrupted unit to advance.
No you are wrong, just play with the rules.

A11.22... Any Infantry/Cavalry attacked by an Original 12 CC DR may likewise withdraw from CC immediately thereafter, assuming it has not been eliminated by that 12 CC DR.

Even the CAV may advance :)
 

WuWei

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STAVKA, "advancing" and "withdrawing" are completely different things. Although I confess they DO get mixed up quite a lot in tales after the fact.
My unit did not, as some clueless people claim, cowardly withdraw. We boldly advanced... towards the rear.
 

STAVKA

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STAVKA, "advancing" and "withdrawing" are completely different things. Although I confess they DO get mixed up quite a lot in tales after the fact.
My unit did not, as some clueless people claim, cowardly withdraw. We boldly advanced... towards the rear.
What do you not understand?

From the rules: Any unit withdrawing during the CCPh may carry only ~ its IPC and must enter an adjacent Location
which is Accessible to that Unit under normal APh conditions (even if it
requires placement of a ex counter; 4.72
 

STAVKA

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Did Perry say it applied only if the disrupted unit routs there? No -- he was asked a specific question and he answered it. If you would like to follow up with additional questions to clarify the situations you are unsure about, here is the email address: asl_qa@multimanpublishing.com.
Why did you involve Perry with my post that was a direct response with Simon's post. Pay some attention we are in the rule section, after all .;)
 

STAVKA

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Just keep doubling down. Never ever admit that you misspoke. It's a sign of weakness.
Try to compute that All movement in the CC phase should be considered CCph-Advance.

Tanks for your bubbling smear; advanced from your heart,
 

apbills

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Try to compute that All movement in the CC phase should be considered CCph-Advance.

Tanks for your bubbling smear; advanced from your heart,
I tried to compute, but all I came up with was that ALL Advance occurs in the Advance Phase, and that all units that change Locations during the CCPh do so by Withdrawing. I have been unable to determine the term "CCph-Advance" anywhere in the rules or lexicon of ASL.

Please educate me, where do you find the rules about "Advancing" during the CCPh?
 

STAVKA

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I tried to compute, but all I came up with was that ALL Advance occurs in the Advance Phase, and that all units that change Locations during the CCPh do so by Withdrawing. I have been unable to determine the term "CCph-Advance" anywhere in the rules or lexicon of ASL.

Please educate me, where do you find the rules about "Advancing" during the CCPh?
In post 11 above
... and must enter an adjacent Location
which is Accessible to that Unit under normal Advance Phase conditions (even if it requires placement of a cx counter; 4.72)
 

STAVKA

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Please educate me, where do you find the rules about "Advancing" during the CCPh?
I fond some more in the very beginning of the Rules, Don Greenwood explains:

"Advance capability during the APh" (just to make clear, a units advance capabiliy in the CCph is not restricted).

A.3 MOVE/ADVANCE: .... If a unit's
advance capability during the APh is also restricted,

Even found in ch K Training Manual, written by Jim Stahler , about advance opportunities during the CCph.
 
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apbills

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In post 11 above
... and must enter an adjacent Location
which is Accessible to that Unit under normal Advance Phase conditions (even if it requires placement of a cx counter; 4.72)
So the rule defining Withdrawal says you can only withdraw to a Location if that Location would, under normal Advance Phase conditions, be Accessible. That is what you interpret to mean you Advance in the CCPh?
I fond some more in the very beginning of the Rules, Don Greenwood explains:

"Advance capability during the APh" (just to make clear, a units advance capabiliy in the CCph is not restricted).

A.3 MOVE/ADVANCE: .... If a unit's
advance capability during the APh is also restricted,

Even found in ch K Training Manual, written by Jim Stahler , about advance opportunities during the CCph.
Give me a more specific reference other than "in the very beginning of the rules" since I see none of what you quote in the Introduction of the 2nd Edition rules. (neither the 2nd Edition Intro nor the previous intro left on the back of that page)

As for A.3, I think it is pretty clear it does not mention CCPh anywhere.

Now for Chapter K; I pulled it out and read the entire section "Day Four; Close Combat" and there is nothing about advance opportunities in CC, just discussion about Withdrawing. Everything about Advance is stated as during the APh. Is Jim's discussion in another "Day" of the manual? I have lost track of Jim over the years, but in my younger years playtesting Yanks and West of Alamein with him and his test group we did get into some interesting rules debates, and I am pretty sure he won all of them, so I respect his knowledge of the rules.

To summarize, you have not given me any specific reference I can find that states you Advance in the CCPh - anywhere. However, there are dozens of references about Withdrawing in the CCPh. I think the ASOP is also a good source for this - the only place in the CCPh where "advance" is found is here:
"8.12B Resolve Ambush if advance into CC (not Melee) was into..." Which refers to the advance made during the APh.

However, it does state [bold/underline for emphasis]:
"8.24B Resolve that sequential CC attack, or all simultaneous CC attacks if no sequential CC exists. Successfully Withdrawing unit(s) enter(s) Accessible Location(s) (A11.21-22); resolve, vs Withdrawing unit/stack (only), each FFE (C1.51-.53 {C1.71-.72; C1.9; E12.5; G14.65-.661})/ minefield (B28.41-.412) attack as it occurs, and check for Column Disbandment (E11.533)/ trip-flare activation (E1.95)/ Panji MC (G9.41).
 

Eagle4ty

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So the rule defining Withdrawal says you can only withdraw to a Location if that Location would, under normal Advance Phase conditions, be Accessible. That is what you interpret to mean you Advance in the CCPh?

Give me a more specific reference other than "in the very beginning of the rules" since I see none of what you quote in the Introduction of the 2nd Edition rules. (neither the 2nd Edition Intro nor the previous intro left on the back of that page)

As for A.3, I think it is pretty clear it does not mention CCPh anywhere.

Now for Chapter K; I pulled it out and read the entire section "Day Four; Close Combat" and there is nothing about advance opportunities in CC, just discussion about Withdrawing. Everything about Advance is stated as during the APh. Is Jim's discussion in another "Day" of the manual? I have lost track of Jim over the years, but in my younger years playtesting Yanks and West of Alamein with him and his test group we did get into some interesting rules debates, and I am pretty sure he won all of them, so I respect his knowledge of the rules.

To summarize, you have not given me any specific reference I can find that states you Advance in the CCPh - anywhere. However, there are dozens of references about Withdrawing in the CCPh. I think the ASOP is also a good source for this - the only place in the CCPh where "advance" is found is here:
"8.12B Resolve Ambush if advance into CC (not Melee) was into..." Which refers to the advance made during the APh.

However, it does state [bold/underline for emphasis]:
"8.24B Resolve that sequential CC attack, or all simultaneous CC attacks if no sequential CC exists. Successfully Withdrawing unit(s) enter(s) Accessible Location(s) (A11.21-22); resolve, vs Withdrawing unit/stack (only), each FFE (C1.51-.53 {C1.71-.72; C1.9; E12.5; G14.65-.661})/ minefield (B28.41-.412) attack as it occurs, and check for Column Disbandment (E11.533)/ trip-flare activation (E1.95)/ Panji MC (G9.41).
Ah! The ASL Manual. One of my all time favorites (Spy vs Spy).;)
 

STAVKA

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So the rule defining Withdrawal says you can only withdraw to a Location if that Location would, under normal Advance Phase conditions, be Accessible. That is what you interpret to mean you Advance in the CCPh?
Yes, of course.
 
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