A Tip for Hidden Guns....

[Jacometti]

I also was skeptical about its legality so I sent it to Perry and he provided a quick response, which is posted in the Perry Sez sub-forum. Yes, it is legal.

No more skeptical, then?

Thanks for checking.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think you HAVE TO announce the special ammo and target type whenever announcing a shot. I do not understand how you would roll a To Hit DR otherwise.

Agree on the Special Ammo.

C8.1:
"A Gun/SW capable of firing Special Ammunition must announce its intention to do so prior to rolling that To Hit DR..."

I would read this as saying one must also announce what type of Special Ammunition one is firing. E.g., a Gun has both HEAT and APCR - you need to stat which you are attempting to fire.


Regarding Target Type, if not declared, C.9 kicks in.
C.9 UNDECLARED ORDNANCE TARGET TYPE: Any time ordnance capable of fire on more than one Target Type of the C3 To Hit Table makes a To Hit DR without first specifying the Target Type being used, the Target Type used for that To Hit DR is the topmost one listed on the To Hit Table that can legally be used vs a target in that hex by that firer (i.e., Vehicle, Infantry or Area in that order).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

This is potentially problematic. What if you have two guns with special ammo? How do you know which Gun was firing without defining it? This could be abused in this case. There should not be a special case when only one Gun is in play. I'd be curious to hear Klas' take on this one.

I think I would probably just trust the player to note in his mind which Gun is firing, and if it does not have any Special Ammo, note that on his HIP note.

 

[Steven Pleva]

I'm not questioning the legality of the tactic. I'm questioning the process. What if a player had a 37L and a 75L ATG; declares an APCR at target X and rolls a 12 - what is to stop him from saying it was the 37L instead of the 75L? This has the potential for abuse. As a TD I would insist that the shot be fully written down before the attempt is made for verification later if there is the potential for more than one firer.
Steve

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I'm not questioning the legality of the tactic. I'm questioning the process. What if a player had a 37L and a 75L ATG; declares an APCR at target X and rolls a 12 - what is to stop him from saying it was the 37L instead of the 75L? This has the potential for abuse. As a TD I would insist that the shot be fully written down before the attempt is made for verification later if there is the potential for more than one firer.

That sounds to me like an ok way of handling that situation. Easy to do and won't take any time to speak of.

 

[Jacometti]

That sounds to me like an ok way of handling that situation. Easy to do and won't take any time to speak of.

I also think it may apply to only 1 in every 5 scenarios (in terms of OBs with multiples of the same calibre HIP guns on one side) and 1 in every 10 players (who want to use this tip).

So that requires some brief writing in 1 in every 50 games.

Manageable, within tournament timeframes.

 

[R Hooks]

One short question.. what happens if you fire a special ammo that you don't have yet because of date?

 

[jrv]

One short question.. what happens if you fire a special ammo that you don't have yet because of date?

The time continuum ruptures. If you look on the list of items in the box on any AH/MMP module you will see listed a stasis containment field. That is for use if you should have such an event.

JR

 

[Sparafucil3]

One short question.. what happens if you fire a special ammo that you don't have yet because of date?

I hope you look at the counter before I turn my tank over dead thinking "Well fuck!" -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

One short question.. what happens if you fire a special ammo that you don't have yet because of date?

Hopefully your opponent will catch it and tell you don't have the type....

 

[Vinnie]

To be honest, if I have doubts about the way my oppone t is using hip guns and special ammo, then I'd rather not be playing him.
Any hidden unit is possible to abuse.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Any hidden unit is possible to abuse.

Hell, I'll be happy to abuse your units right in front of you any old time.

 

[witchbottles]

I do not see the reason to declare it beforehand that the shot is being taken by "this" 37L ATG and not "that" 50L ATG, even if it does manage the APCR hit at low odds, and is no longer HIP, unless the colored die of the Th DR is 5 or 6, he remains concealed and placed on the board as such. Therefore the enemy still will not know in such cases if it was the 37L or the 50L ATG that just hit and lost HIP. An emplaced Gun only loses concealment if its TH DR colored die is a 5 or a 6.

Tourney wise, I think it legit to call it as you must annotate the attempt before the dice are rolled and place it in an envelope or upside down on the table, for any post-game or post-shot verification if desired by the opponent or the TD. Kind of a pain, but quite similar to any HIP capability in a tourney setting.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I do not see the reason to declare it beforehand that the shot is being taken by "this" 37L ATG and not "that" 50L ATG, even if it does manage the APCR hit at low odds, and is no longer HIP, unless the colored die of the Th DR is 5 or 6, he remains concealed and placed on the board as such. Therefore the enemy still will not know in such cases if it was the 37L or the 50L ATG that just hit and lost HIP. An emplaced Gun only loses concealment if its TH DR colored die is a 5 or a 6.

I'd still think the opponent will figure out if was a 37L or 50L APCR when the Final TK# is announced.

 

[witchbottles]

I'd still think the opponent will figure out if was a 37L or 50L APCR when the Final TK# is announced.

True there. That said, I know of at least one ASL scenario where the Germans are given by SSR the ability to HIP their only StuG III G as if it were a Gun during setup, and they also have a PaK 40 75 L ATG as well in their OB that sets up HIP if in concealment terrain.

In every case, I would NOT accept there is a requirement without some other rule or Errata or Perry reversing himself, that I would have to pull out the 37L or the 50L in my example above revealed to the enemy, and set it to one side and announce "that" Gun was shooting APCR. Or pull out a StuG or the 75L ATG in this case, revealed.

It is concealed unless I hit and my TH colored dr is a 5 or a 6 if it is a Gun. It is HIP unless I have APCR ammo if it is the StuG. I'd pull out a 5/8 " counter set off to the side because it set up HIP. It would have a 5/8" "?" to make it concealed and then be stacked off to one side and announce that was the firing unit, it is HIP and trying for APCR. No sense in giving your opponent "free" recon as to what is shooting at him, in either example.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

In every case, I would NOT accept there is a requirement without some other rule or Errata or Perry reversing himself, that I would have to pull out the 37L or the 50L in my example above revealed to the enemy, and set it to one side and announce "that" Gun was shooting APCR. Or pull out a StuG or the 75L ATG in this case, revealed.

I would be ok with the owner of the Gun mentally noting down which Gun is shooting and updating his HIP notes accordingly if there was no Special Ammo. But I would also be ok with an opponent who wants me to write down which Gun it is (for later verification).

It is concealed unless I hit and my TH colored dr is a 5 or a 6 if it is a Gun. It is HIP unless I have APCR ammo if it is the StuG. I'd pull out a 5/8 " counter set off to the side because it set up HIP. It would have a 5/8" "?" to make it concealed and then be stacked off to one side and announce that was the firing unit, it is HIP and trying for APCR. No sense in giving your opponent "free" recon as to what is shooting at him, in either example.

Agree.

 

[aiabx]

I'm not questioning the legality of the tactic. I'm questioning the process. What if a player had a 37L and a 75L ATG; declares an APCR at target X and rolls a 12 - what is to stop him from saying it was the 37L instead of the 75L? This has the potential for abuse. As a TD I would insist that the shot be fully written down before the attempt is made for verification later if there is the potential for more than one firer.
Steve

For scenarios with 6 or fewer guns, draw your counters with differing ID's. You can announce "Gun A is firing APCR" and it will be unambiguous.

 

[TopT]

For scenarios with 6 or fewer guns, draw your counters with differing ID's. You can announce "Gun A is firing APCR" and it will be unambiguous.

That sounds like a winner. Simple and would cover most ASL scenarios.

 

[Tater]

Certainly not. You do not have to have LOS to "try" taking a a shot.

You could even announce a shot at a target you can CERTAINLY not see.

Hoping to roll above your Depletion Number. Just to freak out the guy.

"6.11 LOS CHECKS: Neither player may make potential LOS checks to determine if a LOS exists for an attack until after that attack has been declared [EXC: Concealment Removal (12.14), Road entry cost (4.132)]. Should the LOS check for an attack reveal a blocked LOS, the units which were to have made the attack are still considered to have fired for all purposes..."

Looks to me like LOS check occurs between the time the attack is declared and the attack is rolled/made. So yeah, in the case given the opponent can certainly ask for an LOS check and it isn't a "dick" move as, according to A6.11, that is what is suppose to happen.

 

[Jacometti]

"6.11 LOS CHECKS: Neither player may make potential LOS checks to determine if a LOS exists for an attack until after that attack has been declared [EXC: Concealment Removal (12.14), Road entry cost (4.132)]. Should the LOS check for an attack reveal a blocked LOS, the units which were to have made the attack are still considered to have fired for all purposes..."

Looks to me like LOS check occurs between the time the attack is declared and the attack is rolled/made. So yeah, in the case given the opponent can certainly ask for an LOS check and it isn't a "dick" move as, according to A6.11, that is what is suppose to happen.

If there is no Special Ammo available, no shot occurred and there certainly would be no stringing of LOS.