A Port Too Far -- Wild Bill

Michael Dorosh

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I think the problem is that WBW name is on a lot of stuff. He started making modifications and selling them around at least 1982 with SL. Sometime in the early 90s he moved on from making modifications to SL/COI/COD/GI (and interestingly not very much ASL mods until recently) to creating scenarios and mods for computer based war games such as the very first dos based Steel Panthers I, II and III. He then went on to make scenarios for Norm Krugers first computer war game called Tanks! and then you'll find a bunch of scenarios he created for SPWAW (Steel Panthers World at War by Matrix games now) and he created a WBW Raiders web site (now defunct) and also created scenarios for Talonsofts East/West Front series and then Rising Sun. I believe he also created scenarios for CMBB and CMBO.

So in the PC world (and in the board game world more indirectly) he has a large name recognition.

Not saying his new bastardizations are worth it or good, just pointing out a little history on him.
He was definitely involved in the Combat Mission scene, and his scenarios got a lot of attention. John Brock and I discussed his "mystique" before, though perhaps not in relation to CM; it's been awhile. His CM scenarios were popular, but I don't think all that well researched if I recall correctly. He always had an eye for PR and marketing - I don't mean that in a nasty way. I believe you're right in that he billed himself and his group of designers/testers as Wild Bill and the Raiders at one point and had a website where he stored his CM and SP scenarios. He had fun designing, and from what I gather, others had fun playing his designs. My contact with him was when we both designed a "Ramelle" scenario for CM:BO. I took a nuts-and-bolts approach and he took a fanciful one - I think he had half a battalion of paratroopers defending the bridge, all told. Was really nothing like the movie, but IIRC his version had more downloads from the scenario depot and more positive feedback. He was well-known in the community, and his stuff was well-liked. It was probably easier to do that with CM, and of course, he was offering up his goods for free.
 

Patrocles

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There's probably one or two unknowing people out there and the rest are Wild Bill's friends upping the bids. It wouldn't surprise me if the only ones he's actually sold are to Pitman, making most/all/more than his money back from the other fake purchases.
LOL Man, I am so naive and stupid I would never think of doing "fake bidding" to increase the value of a product!
:clown:
 

Dr Zaius

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WBW is very widely known in the PC wargaming community as he has been deeply involved in a huge number of wargame projects. In addition to working with Matrix Games, Battlefront, HPS, Armchair General, LnL, and SSI, I believe he was also one of the editors over at The Wargamer. He was quite active on WarfareHQ at one point as well, though I haven't talked to him in years. In some cases I believe he was chiefly involved in helping lead teams of scenario designers making add-on campaigns rather than working directly for the company.

WBW has been at it for as long as I can remember and has a large number of fans who follow his work.
 
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WBW is very widely known in the PC wargaming community as he has been deeply involved in a huge number of wargame projects. In addition to working with Matrix Games, Battlefront, HPS, Armchair General, LnL, and SSI, I believe he was also one of the editors over at The Wargamer. He was quite active on WarfareHQ at one point as well, though I haven't talked to him in years. In some cases I believe he was chiefly involved in helping lead teams of scenario designers making add-on campaigns rather than working directly for the company.

WBW has been at it for as long as I can remember and has a large number of fans who follow his work.
Any idea if this is the same person as "W. Bill" who was credited with 'Oversight' on some Victory Games products?

(I asked in an earlier thread but don't think anyone in that thread knew.)
 

Dr Zaius

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Any idea if this is the same person as "W. Bill" who was credited with 'Oversight' on some Victory Games products?

(I asked in an earlier thread but don't think anyone in that thread knew.)
That I don't know. I know there was another guy involved in some wargaming stuff that also went by "Wild Bill," but it was a different person. The last I heard WBW had joined the Lock 'n Load team, but I have no idea whether he is still involved in that or not.
 

Pitman

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WBW is very widely known in the PC wargaming community as he has been deeply involved in a huge number of wargame projects. In addition to working with Matrix Games, Battlefront, HPS, Armchair General, LnL, and SSI, I believe he was also one of the editors over at The Wargamer. He was quite active on WarfareHQ at one point as well, though I haven't talked to him in years. In some cases I believe he was chiefly involved in helping lead teams of scenario designers making add-on campaigns rather than working directly for the company.

WBW has been at it for as long as I can remember and has a large number of fans who follow his work.
I don't know why. If his computer game quality is as poor as his ASL product quality, they should have burnt him at the stake.
 

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LOL Man, I am so naive and stupid I would never think of doing "fake bidding" to increase the value of a product!
:clown:
The downside to this is that if your firend wins, you don't get any money and you eat the paypal charges. However, the paypal charges are something like 3-5%. So as long as you sell 5 for every 100 put on eBay, you're ok ;)
 

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I don't know why. If his computer game quality is as poor as his ASL product quality, they should have burnt him at the stake.
Much of the mechanics of computer games is hidden so much can be got away with and a lot of 'puter players don't require the level of accuracy we do. So it's an eaiser audiance and easier to loose quality disapline (on the correct side)

Ian
 

Dr Zaius

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Much of the mechanics of computer games is hidden so much can be got away with and a lot of 'puter players don't require the level of accuracy we do. So it's an eaiser audiance and easier to loose quality disapline (on the correct side)
That's a matter of opinion. I believe if you were to print out the behind-the-scenes calculations that go on in some computer wargame designs, you would end up with a rulebook that rivals ASL. Take a closer look at TacOps, POA2, DG and Harpoon. In some cases the sheer scale of the calculations going on for weapons penetration, missile velocity, kinetic energy values, and line of sight would be totally impractical in a cardboard game.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Much of the mechanics of computer games is hidden so much can be got away with and a lot of 'puter players don't require the level of accuracy we do. So it's an eaiser audiance and easier to loose quality disapline (on the correct side)

Ian
As far as scenarios go, some computer games require more research than ASL, not less, because you need to do the maps from scratch. Not everyone does that, and they just whip up generic maps. Some take the time to do accurate maps from wartime topo maps, and do detailed order of battle searches (and then again, some ASL scenario designers do the same thing, even if it is not apparent in the final scenario cards). No idea if WBW did that with, say, his CM work. But it all varies from person to person - basically you get out what you put in. I would agree with Don that it's not necessarily easy to generalize. You could easily spend weeks trying to research battle casualty stats and replacement intake for a specific battalion in order to determine if they should be a 6-6-6 or 6-6-7 in an ASL scenario, and at the end of the day you could have actually done it with a coin toss, or find out in playtesting it "feels" better if you play it out with a different type of squad than you originally picked. But you have to do the research and then the testing honestly; I think the suggestion is that WBW may have taken some shortcuts in those paths.

I think when John and I discussed it before, we concluded that we rarely played any of his scenarios and really didn't have a feel for why he was surrounded by the mystique after all. Others who have played his "stuff" may have a better idea. I don't believe he was known for his research at any rate, just more along the lines of name recognition and possibly the way he presented himself, as well as level of output.
 

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That's a matter of opinion. I believe if you were to print out the behind-the-scenes calculations that go on in some computer wargame designs, you would end up with a rulebook that rivals ASL. Take a closer look at TacOps, POA2, DG and Harpoon. In some cases the sheer scale of the calculations going on for weapons penetration, missile velocity, kinetic energy values, and line of sight would be totally impractical in a cardboard game.
That was kind of my point, you don't see what it is so it is unquestionable. As such if it's wrong it stays wrong. To play my get out of jail card, much of this view is from playing early computer rules for mini's such as the MG fire able to take out a tank whilst the main gun would bounce off (every time) or if two cav units in Naps were to charge each other, the one that was inputted first would win almost every melee. You just can't argue with it though.:cry:
 

Dr Zaius

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That was kind of my point, you don't see what it is so it is unquestionable. As such if it's wrong it stays wrong.
That's true at times. On the other hand, in boardgames like ASL, if it's wrong players will simply trot out arguments like "design for effect," even if everyone knows it's wrong and it's obvious. They just don't want to see anything changed as it will require learning new rules.

The end result is that both systems have serious design problems that go uncorrected, but for differing reasons.

To play my get out of jail card, much of this view is from playing early computer rules...
There are advantages and disadvantages in both types. It's hard to argue that designers haven't taken tabletop wargaming about as far as it can go. In contrast, up till now the primary limitation on computer wargames has been hardware limitations due to available memory and processing power. It just wasn't practical to do a lot of the things that designers would have liked to do. That, coupled with the fact that most wargame developers aren't anywhere close to being elite programmers with the skills required to code cutting edge designs that harness the latest APIs. But as time goes on, hardware limitations have largely become a thing of the past. The limitation now is that there simply aren't very many really advanced programmers out there working on computer wargame designs. Even when you do get a decent one, they're usually working alone and it's very difficult to create truly great software with a team of one.

Sadly, the truth is there's no money in it. If there were, and considering what modern PCs are capable of, one can only wonder what kind of wargames a company with the resources of, say, EA Games could produce. The capability is there to create games with insanely detailed combat algorithms, incredible terrain fidelity, accurate FOW for both friendly and enemy forces, logistics, and much more. But it's not going to happen because there's no money in it. So we get designs cobbled together by guys with -- let's be honest -- mediocre coding skills who do it as a part-time hobby.

The average computer game in 2009 has a budget of roughly 20 million dollars and the average video game about 30 million. Top flight productions like GTA sport budgets of well over 100 million dollars and have 100-150 full time programmers, producers, AI specialists, GUI designers, audio specialists and more. What kind of wargame could we produce with that kind of money and that kind of talent? The best thing is that the game could be designed with LAN and face-to-face multiplayer options right from the outset, so it would have the fidelity of a true computer simulation and the pure joy of face-to-face social interaction. Companies like CCP have proven that it's even possible to do this kind of thing and put it into a persistent game world. Imagine being able to re-fight all of WWII with incredibly accurate weapons systems, a working chain of command, and have the result of every battle affect every other battle -- a true persistent wargame.

Not gonna' happen because there's too few wargamers, they're far too hard to please, and they tend to be cheap bastards who buy one game and play it for a decade or two. Exactly the kind of market any sane publisher would pay to avoid. So we get the crumbs.

But maybe 30 years from now, when computers have evolved to the point where even non-programmers can design quality software...
 

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The end result is that both systems have serious design problems that go uncorrected, but for differing reasons.

..
Given the open file nature of the ASL rulebook it shouts out for improvment but just look at the Bridge TEM outrage, so nothing to add to your comment:hush:

Not sure the apeal would be there for ASL if it was turned into a computer wargame. Also we are not just tight but put us in front of a computer and we become lazy too. I would never suffer a manual as big as the ASL rulebook that's for sure!!
 

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In his e-mail to me, Bill Wilder defended his products, explaining that he was not a guru and was just trying to make fun products. I sent a response to him that told him, in essence, what the minimum levels of quality were that were expected by the ASL community for a product, including fully developed rules and fully playtested scenarios. I told him the average amount of time it really takes for a decent ASL TPP to be developed. He sent back an e-mail in which he suggested, at least, that he would try to do better, try to reach out and get playtesters and people who would help with the development. Time will tell, I suppose. In any case, if people like the sorts of thing he is doing, if not the quality, he might be receptive to their reaching out and asking to help.
 
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