A.P. Fourteen.

Chas

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I like the new boards. The linkage of the hedges to woods is great (stuff that Don and I talked about 19 years ago trying to get a bocage pack going). I also like the use of the paths. I think the buildings should possibly have been standard stone, but otherwise a great design and board. I might even be motivated to do some more Normandy stuff:)

Board 12 is really good with lots of potential use. Just enough hedges to be Normandy, but not too much so that it could be used for other theaters.
BTW, I am pretty sure the enemy is coming through the Gully:)

Overall great job here, as with the previous AP on the boards.
 

Justiciar

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I, of course, gobble up whatever comes out, but the number of boards is problematic. Very discouraging if you're just starting out.
You can't design for 'starters'. Terrain creates a very very important element to the tactical puzzle you are trying to solve when playing. I have played ASL since 1988, so I have seen board 4 and board 4 matched with 90% of the boards and so know that neck of the woods...I am looking for new woods....#84 is nice* and fresh.
When having/facing a German MMG or a British MMG the MG is the essentially the same problem to solve, the ground over which you combat it is more important and adds that challenge. I have no problem with 2-3 official boards every year (i.e. the AP or WO release norm), or the 4-6 that come out sort of every other year when a SK is released in addition to the above. Note I don't buy or play SK, so wait until those come up as stand alone.
 

wrongway149

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Bd84 is certainly going to be a bugger for vehicles if/when there's bocage. Even with hedges or SSRed fences there's going to be a lot of interesting LOS/LOF challenges. Got to agree with you on that board but there's a dearth of "strung out" villages represented with our current selection prior to this release but one needs only to look at a WW-II map to see a plethora of them.
VII Corps Commander Gen J. Lawton (aka 'Lightning Joe") Collins called the terrain around hill 192 'nastier than Guadalcanal' . So I think there may be some PTO cardboard battles fought upon it at some point. ;)
 
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samwat

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I was wondering about 192. Philosophical question here: 192 is not that high, you can walk up it easily. But in relative terms—relative to the surrounding AO—it was a landmark, like Hill 112, thus all the fighting there. Indeed, it was the centerpiece of Joe Balkowski’s 80s game, St. Lo, in which your artillery effectiveness was multiplied by the height of your observer. (I think the basic units of maneuver were companies.)

so my question, for any and everybody, is to what extent do you say, the hill was only 192 (or 112) meters, that’s level 2, or do you say, in relation to surrounding terrain — for LOS purposes—this should be level 4, or 8, etc. But then you get hills that are perhaps far too steep in movement terms, plus coming up with colors for levels 5+ that don’t get darker and darker, uglier and uglier.

???


We can not have enough boards. Of all the 'new' component types that can still be produced - new mapboards and scenarios are fun to have and the whole object here is.. fun. We have the counters, we have the rulebook. New boards stimulate scenario design - as Evan says. Pete, Evan, Bill, Chas - the best designers need inspiration - and boards give them that. To that end, there are so many other possible boards not yet done. There are about 200 sketches in the wings :) Lots of Normandy/European, Russian, Italian, PTO, Korean board possibilities that Tom and I have worked on.

Board 12a layout and design was based on an actual Normandy village, large buildings and all. Other types of Normandy (or northern European) villages could have been done - but board 12a is a mix of small and large which should make it pretty versatile. Board 84 was based also on some typical Normandy hills - somewhat low, the top of the hill shrouded by hedgerows. Hill 192, Hill 30, others were in mind.
 

RandyT0001

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I was wondering about 192. Philosophical question here: 192 is not that high, you can walk up it easily. But in relative terms—relative to the surrounding AO—it was a landmark, like Hill 112, thus all the fighting there. Indeed, it was the centerpiece of Joe Balkowski’s 80s game, St. Lo, in which your artillery effectiveness was multiplied by the height of your observer. (I think the basic units of maneuver were companies.)

so my question, for any and everybody, is to what extent do you say, the hill was only 192 (or 112) meters, that’s level 2, or do you say, in relation to surrounding terrain — for LOS purposes—this should be level 4, or 8, etc. But then you get hills that are perhaps far too steep in movement terms, plus coming up with colors for levels 5+ that don’t get darker and darker, uglier and uglier.

???
Hill levels in ASL are not specified in height, meters or feet. I'm working on a SK scenario for Hill 112 which has only level one hills.
 

samwat

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Correct. So my question is the design question, how does one model levels for LOS, vs. mobility and/or aesthetics. We’ve all seen HASL maps where the color palette looks ridiculous, with near-black level 8 (or whatnot) hills. On the other hand, is Hill 112 only a level 1 hill? (Maybe for SK.). You can see over a lot of buildings and copses of trees from 112. But maybe that’s not so true when the normal infantry firefight range is no more than 500-640 yards (12-16 hexes). So maybe level 1 is right, unless one is thinking arty observation, where if you were designing for the Brits moving up out of the valley toward 112 you’d say the German offboard observer was at level 4 (or so).

I’m wondering what designers emphasize when they model elevation effects.
 

Paul M. Weir

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There have been many threads on ASL levels. CH have gone with 10m/level. What appears to be the case is that ASL levels work primarily as relative heights, not absolute heights. What matters is whether the hill level you are standing on is twice (or thrice) the height of the single story house below you and you can see over it or not. It really doesn't matter whether that single story house is a 3m high peasant hovel or a solidly built 8m farmhouse if the hills are 6m or 16m respectively, they can both be represented by the same ASL board.
 

xenovin

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As there are no 40 meter wide single family houses, the elevations are an abstract like the rest of the system.
 

RandyT0001

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As there are no 40 meter wide single family houses, the elevations are an abstract like the rest of the system.
Those 40 meter wide single family homes belong to people like the Earl of Lint and the Duke of Cool. ;)
 

kempenfelter

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I'm in the minority here--aside from Starter Kit where I have or will have all the maps--I am not interested in new geoboards. Glad to see the Action Packs come out, happy to play the scenarios with people who have the gear, but don't need to own them. I have enjoyed playing a few Hatten in Flames scenarios and I wonder if designers could go that route. A solid scenario set but without box, lid, countersheets, campaign rules and dividers.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Correct. So my question is the design question, how does one model levels for LOS, vs. mobility and/or aesthetics.



I’m wondering what designers emphasize when they model elevation effects.
Everything is relative, is the simplest answer. You hint at the answer yourself. Longstop (in Tunisia) was so steep, apparently, the Germans were amazed when Churchill tanks arrived at the top of it. I think this example was actually mentioned in the design group discussions for the Forgotten War team, during the development of the steep hill rules for that module.

The Wikipedia article mentions this right in the lede: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Longstop_Hill

I would guess scenario designers will pick whatever strikes them as pertinent from their research. In this case, mobility. Having stood on top of Hill 67 in Normandy, and getting a sense of just how terrific the view of the surrounding countryside was, I would probably emphasize LOS since accounts of that battle in July 1944 don't talk about mobility. Whatever gives the best sense or 'feel' of the action I guess.
 

Justiciar

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[QUOTE="samwat, post: 1991369, member: 24876"
I’m wondering what designers emphasize when they model elevation effects.
[/QUOTE]

I might be missing something by what you mean...but how can a designer of a non-HASL model elevation effects? (Barring your off board observer which is a good one...and moving this to FW...your TACP). Aren't they stuck with how LOS works in "standard" ASL...ie no slopes and no custom drawn map? About all they can do is say woods is brush or orchards are shellholes and the like to clear fields of fire. They could also use the relatively new "fire zones" from HP. But really on a geo you can't model elevation...you can tinker as above, and turn the board this way are or that...or place Hill Overall 3 here.

"Model" to my mind carries with it mimic or copy...and that seems to me a HASL like feature. Approximate is geo...compromise is geo....

But like I said at the outset maybe I am missing what you have in your mind's eye as "model."
 

samwat

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You’re right, I was thinking more HASL than geo. The coincidence of numbering the board 84 hill as 192 had got me thinking. If it was a HASL board, I might make Hill 192 a level 4 hill—but then, given the relatively short ranges of infantry fire, I guess that what I really have in mind to model is artillery observation, and perhaps offboard observers are the best way to simulate that sort of elevation advantage.
 

Justiciar

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You’re right, I was thinking more HASL than geo. The coincidence of numbering the board 84 hill as 192 had got me thinking. If it was a HASL board, I might make Hill 192 a level 4 hill—but then, given the relatively short ranges of infantry fire, I guess that what I really have in mind to model is artillery observation, and perhaps offboard observers are the best way to simulate that sort of elevation advantage.
On thinking about this more if you look at the other board that came with the AP, 12a/b is it. Now that is a geo "model" or maybe better as "artist rendition" of St. Lambert sur Dives. The long gully is really the Dives River but to give the board more play they made it a gully. The village part of the map is a nice rendition of the real thing for ASL geo-boards.
 

wrongway149

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On thinking about this more if you look at the other board that came with the AP, 12a/b is it. Now that is a geo "model" or maybe better as "artist rendition" of St. Lambert sur Dives. The long gully is really the Dives River but to give the board more play they made it a gully. The village part of the map is a nice rendition of the real thing for ASL geo-boards.
Affirmative -- and these were very deliberate design decisions.
 

RobZagnut

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I HATE Bocage!!! I didn’t buy AP 11 and I won’t buy AP 14. If that leaves a hole in my geoboards; oh well. There’s plenty of new boards and scenarios to play without having to support the abomination of ASL.

I am buying all that is Korean War. Just ordered The Fight for Seoul and Rally Point 17.
 

boylermaker

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Boards don't move the needle for me one way or the other, since I am new enough that all boards are new to me and, as somebody pointed out upthread, no one should be designing scenarios for me anyway.... I also increasingly play VASL-only, so I'm buying things only for rules and scenarios--I already have all the maps and counters that I will ever need on my laptop.

Which I guess means that I am slightly against boards being in products, since it makes them marginally more expensive. Not sure how large the effect size on that is, however.
 
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