A Newbie Asks...(Tactics/Play)

owenedwards

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Hello all.

As someone playing through the Starter Kits solitaire whilst beginning to learn the full rules, I end up with a lot of non-rules questions, as well as the inevitable confusions about rules. So I thought I'd make myself a thread -as I couldn't see any equivalent - to ask tactics and play questions. Other people might like to ask questions too.

So here's a starter: what is the optimum use of Infantry Smoke? I've used it fruitfully a couple of times, usually as part of a leapfrog where a unit lays down smoke after AM or not moving at all, so that other infantry can move up a bit more aggressively behind. I can also see an occasional use defensively, to cover weak positions from fire. These both seems relatively marginal compared to the strength of Ordnance Smoke. What do the real vets say?

EDIT: In fact, have a second question: what are the generic methods for preventing Rout so as to cause Surrender/destruction? I find it pretty hard to avoid situations where a Low Crawl is good enough to get away.
 

A_T_Great

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Hello all.

As someone playing through the Starter Kits solitaire whilst beginning to learn the full rules, I end up with a lot of non-rules questions, as well as the inevitable confusions about rules. So I thought I'd make myself a thread -as I couldn't see any equivalent - to ask tactics and play questions. Other people might like to ask questions too.

So here's a starter: what is the optimum use of Infantry Smoke? I've used it fruitfully a couple of times, usually as part of a leapfrog where a unit lays down smoke after AM or not moving at all, so that other infantry can move up a bit more aggressively behind. I can also see an occasional use defensively, to cover weak positions from fire. These both seems relatively marginal compared to the strength of Ordnance Smoke. What do the real vets say?
The other time I attempt to use it, is throwing it into an adjacent hex, and then moving into the smoke with the same unit. Good for getting across a road or open ground area to another hex with cover.
You can also use WP smoke grenades as a weapon against adjacent enemies.
 

Tuomo

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I can also see an occasional use defensively, to cover weak positions from fire.
Just to clarify - only the Attacker can use infantry smoke - A24.1 talks about an infantry squad using it in its MPh.

But yep, you've got the gist right - you're laying down smoke to give cover to the follow-on units. Infantry (1/2") smoke goes away at the end of the MPh, so it's a short-term thing, used only to cover you against your opponent's First Fire while you're moving. Vehicular Smoke Dispensers (D13) lay down 5/8" smoke which lasts a little longer. Although vehicle crews can throw 1/2" smoke if they're CE and roll a dr of 1 or 2, which is a pretty good deal for those tanks (especially Tin Cans in the early war years) whose makers forgot to give them Smoke Dischargers.

In some scenarios, infantry smoke is vital to getting where you're going. Those scenarios often feature Assault Engineers whose smoke exponents go up by 2 from the value printed on the counter. And the general US infantry smoke exponent of 3 means that US infantry had better rely on smoke a lot. It's not just a nicety for them - if you don't use it as a basic element of a US attack, you're not helping yourself.

Otherwise, the necessity of using infantry smoke tends to go down with the smoke exponent. With German 4(1)-6-7's, it becomes more of a nice-to-have kinda thing, worth rolling for if you're desperate or have enough units or spare MFs to give it a whirl. It would be a cruel scenario designer who gave the Germans only 467's but set up the scenario to make them rely on infantry smoke. With 4(2)-6-8's, now you're starting to think about using it more. Etc. If you have 8(3)-3-8's, sure it's lovely to think about them kicking butt in CC, but that smoke exponent of 3 is often important too.

Sometimes it's a Style Points thing - you're reminding your opponent that yes, you do know that using Smoke is a good thing, and even though the value of that particular 1/2" smoke counter isn't huge at the moment, you want him to remember that you have that tool in your belt.

As far as preventing rout, that's part of why flanking is so important. Frontal attacks just let the enemy rout back to his safe areas, and just as importantly, they let him "skulk" in his Movement Phase without taking fire from you. If you get around to his flanks, then you can hit him even if he tries to Skulk (or fall back to his next line of defense), and you make it harder for him to rout.

In fact, it's widely recognized as one of the ASL Levels Of Personal Growth when you realize the game is mostly about movement so that you can hurt your opponent during your DFPh of his player turn, and eliminate his broken units for Failure to Rout. Sounds like you may be ready for that step.
 

Actionjick

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Just to clarify - only the Attacker can use infantry smoke - A24.1 talks about an infantry squad using it in its MPh.

But yep, you've got the gist right - you're laying down smoke to give cover to the follow-on units. Infantry (1/2") smoke goes away at the end of the MPh, so it's a short-term thing, used only to cover you against your opponent's First Fire while you're moving. Vehicular Smoke Dispensers (D13) lay down 5/8" smoke which lasts a little longer. Although vehicle crews can throw 1/2" smoke if they're CE and roll a dr of 1 or 2, which is a pretty good deal for those tanks (especially Tin Cans in the early war years) whose makers forgot to give them Smoke Dischargers.

In some scenarios, infantry smoke is vital to getting where you're going. Those scenarios often feature Assault Engineers whose smoke exponents go up by 2 from the value printed on the counter. And the general US infantry smoke exponent of 3 means that US infantry had better rely on smoke a lot. It's not just a nicety for them - if you don't use it as a basic element of a US attack, you're not helping yourself.

Otherwise, the necessity of using infantry smoke tends to go down with the smoke exponent. With German 4(1)-6-7's, it becomes more of a nice-to-have kinda thing, worth rolling for if you're desperate or have enough units or spare MFs to give it a whirl. It would be a cruel scenario designer who gave the Germans only 467's but set up the scenario to make them rely on infantry smoke. With 4(2)-6-8's, now you're starting to think about using it more. Etc. If you have 8(3)-3-8's, sure it's lovely to think about them kicking butt in CC, but that smoke exponent of 3 is often important too.

Sometimes it's a Style Points thing - you're reminding your opponent that yes, you do know that using Smoke is a good thing, and even though the value of that particular 1/2" smoke counter isn't huge at the moment, you want him to remember that you have that tool in your belt.

As far as preventing rout, that's part of why flanking is so important. Frontal attacks just let the enemy rout back to his safe areas, and just as importantly, they let him "skulk" in his Movement Phase without taking fire from you. If you get around to his flanks, then you can hit him even if he tries to Skulk (or fall back to his next line of defense), and you make it harder for him to rout.

In fact, it's widely recognized as one of the ASL Levels Of Personal Growth when you realize the game is mostly about movement so that you can hurt your opponent during your DFPh of his player turn, and eliminate his broken units for Failure to Rout. Sounds like you may be ready for that step.
Very nice, especially emphasizing the value of movement.
 

Actionjick

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Why thank you. You'll notice I didn't let on about the six Levels of Personal Growth beyond the one I mentioned. We don't want to crush the lad's spirit just yet.
You are quite welcome. How many levels to reach ASL nirvana???????
 

Sparafucil3

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So here's a starter: what is the optimum use of Infantry Smoke? I've used it fruitfully a couple of times, usually as part of a leapfrog where a unit lays down smoke after AM or not moving at all, so that other infantry can move up a bit more aggressively behind. I can also see an occasional use defensively, to cover weak positions from fire. These both seems relatively marginal compared to the strength of Ordnance Smoke. What do the real vets say?
Infantry Smoke is tough to count on unless you have Assault Engineers. However, it can save your bacon at times. For example, I recall a game in which my Sherman was pushed by a Panther. The Panther stops, the Sherman fails to hurt it frontally, the Panther shoots, doesn't hit but places acq. Now it's my turn. How to extricate this tank. I moved one squad to a position to safely throw Infantry Smoke into the LOS. I use another to place Infantry Smoke into another hex along the LOS. At start up, I popped the sM into LOS and moved away safely, getting to the side of Panther, winning the Gun Duel, and planting a shot into the side for the kill. You can use it to help get across a road, turn a firelane from a -2 to a -1 shot. If you have WP grenades, you can toss those into a Location you're Adjacent to and generate MC's on the occupying Infantry. In any situation which you could use a little more cover--particularly along a LOS which is already hindered by some other hinderance--you should consider Infantry Smoke. Just weigh the risk of rolling a 6 and ending in the Location you're in at the moment of the roll against the need for Smoke.

EDIT: In fact, have a second question: what are the generic methods for preventing Rout so as to cause Surrender/destruction? I find it pretty hard to avoid situations where a Low Crawl is good enough to get away.
Generally speaking, the way you stop routing is by having units which either cover Open Ground Locations the routing unit has to go through to rout, or by having units place in such a way as to deny routing options for getting closer to a Known Enemy Unit (KEU). The best way to learn this is to play someone who is damn good at doing it. You'll learn this pretty quickly. IMO, understanding how to rout and how to set Rally points, is the key to playing better. If you know how to maneuver for this, you're doing pretty well. -- jim
 

Old Noob

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One thing to remember when using WP infantry grenades: NEVER throw them up a stairwell unless you can be sure you won't botch the throw.
Had one come back down on me playing 'Silence that Gun'. On the other hand, got 'Heat of Battle' on the WP MC and generated a Berserker.
 

Actionjick

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One thing to remember when using WP infantry grenades: NEVER throw them up a stairwell unless you can be sure you won't botch the throw.
Had one come back down on me playing 'Silence that Gun'. On the other hand, got 'Heat of Battle' on the WP MC and generated a Berserker.
Now that is crazy funny!???
 

Actionjick

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Infantry Smoke is tough to count on unless you have Assault Engineers. However, it can save your bacon at times. For example, I recall a game in which my Sherman was pushed by a Panther. The Panther stops, the Sherman fails to hurt it frontally, the Panther shoots, doesn't hit but places acq. Now it's my turn. How to extricate this tank. I moved one squad to a position to safely throw Infantry Smoke into the LOS. I use another to place Infantry Smoke into another hex along the LOS. At start up, I popped the sM into LOS and moved away safely, getting to the side of Panther, winning the Gun Duel, and planting a shot into the side for the kill. You can use it to help get across a road, turn a firelane from a -2 to a -1 shot. If you have WP grenades, you can toss those into a Location you're Adjacent to and generate MC's on the occupying Infantry. In any situation which you could use a little more cover--particularly along a LOS which is already hindered by some other hinderance--you should consider Infantry Smoke. Just weigh the risk of rolling a 6 and ending in the Location you're in at the moment of the roll against the need for Smoke.


Generally speaking, the way you stop routing is by having units which either cover Open Ground Locations the routing unit has to go through to rout, or by having units place in such a way as to deny routing options for getting closer to a Known Enemy Unit (KEU). The best way to learn this is to play someone who is damn good at doing it. You'll learn this pretty quickly. IMO, understanding how to rout and how to set Rally points, is the key to playing better. If you know how to maneuver for this, you're doing pretty well. -- jim
Another really good piece of advice! It's great to see grognards passing on hard won knowledge to those just starting the game!! Kudos to you all. ???
 

Actionjick

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Hello all.

As someone playing through the Starter Kits solitaire whilst beginning to learn the full rules, I end up with a lot of non-rules questions, as well as the inevitable confusions about rules. So I thought I'd make myself a thread -as I couldn't see any equivalent - to ask tactics and play questions. Other people might like to ask questions too.

So here's a starter: what is the optimum use of Infantry Smoke? I've used it fruitfully a couple of times, usually as part of a leapfrog where a unit lays down smoke after AM or not moving at all, so that other infantry can move up a bit more aggressively behind. I can also see an occasional use defensively, to cover weak positions from fire. These both seems relatively marginal compared to the strength of Ordnance Smoke. What do the real vets say?

EDIT: In fact, have a second question: what are the generic methods for preventing Rout so as to cause Surrender/destruction? I find it pretty hard to avoid situations where a Low Crawl is good enough to get away.
When you get around to using armor check out the thread How To Become Better at Using AFVs in ASL. The same people, and others, who are offering such great advice here did the same on that thread.
 
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owenedwards

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This is all great advice. Re no defensive smoke, well, that explains why I've never tried it so far - I literally couldn't have! Weird brainfade on my part.
 

Tuomo

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This is all great advice. Re no defensive smoke, well, that explains why I've never tried it so far - I literally couldn't have! Weird brainfade on my part.
That's a great reason to play other people. You'd be surprised what you've been playing wrong, til you find out from someone else. These Forums are full of people who have been playing things wrong for years. Brain farts all over the place.
 

Eagle4ty

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This is all great advice. Re no defensive smoke, well, that explains why I've never tried it so far - I literally couldn't have! Weird brainfade on my part.
Not entirely correct as only SMOKE Grenade use (and in ASLSK Smoke Dischargers I believe) is limited to being used in the MPh by the ATTACKER (not to be confused with the Attacker). Note however per ASLSK Rule 1.2.5 SMOKE may also be placed at the start of the PFPh and DFPh by ordnance fire and in ASL one can even use sD/sM/Crew-Smoke as a form of Defensive Fire (D13.2 [NOTE: I'm not that totally familiar with ASLSK so I'm not sure if this opportunity exists within the ASLSK rules as well but I don't believe so (ASLSK Rule 7.5?)]). However, Ordnance delivered SMOKE during the DFPh certainly has its uses:
  • Lets say an enemy vehicle has moved to within "danger close" proximity to a critical position during its MPh and is about to engage your units in the upcoming AFPh. Placing SMOKE between the vehicle and your position (or better yet ON the offending vehicle) may make the difference in an upcoming fire upon your units upping the DRMs to its MG-IFT/TH DRs.
  • Also, if you as the DEFENDER has a WP Smoke producing ordnance weapon system you could potentially put WP on on a vulnerable enemy position causing a MC on those units as WP, regardless of the phase placed, will cause a MC to those effected units when it is placed.
 

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Lets say an enemy vehicle has moved to within "danger close" proximity to a critical position during its MPh and is about to engage your units in the upcoming AFPh. Placing SMOKE between the vehicle and your position (or better yet ON the offending vehicle) may make the difference in an upcoming fire upon your units upping the DRMs to its MG-IFT/TH DRs.
I started to type this, but you already had. The only other thing I would add to this is:
  • As the Defender placing SMOKE, you have to remember it goes away before you move next so have a plan for that.
  • If you're going to lay SMOKE with an sD/sM/etc, you probably should also be making a Motion Attempt. The free spin and immediate move to get behind some hard cover should be the goal if you're working this hard to save the AFV.
Lastly, we have spent some time talking about sD/sM/etc, don't forget armed vehicles and AFV's also have access to Vehicular Smoke Grenades (D13.35). -- jim
 

Carln0130

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One thing to remember when using WP infantry grenades: NEVER throw them up a stairwell unless you can be sure you won't botch the throw.
Had one come back down on me playing 'Silence that Gun'. On the other hand, got 'Heat of Battle' on the WP MC and generated a Berserker.
Hills too. Smoke grenades and WP grenades roll back down those at 50%.
 

Carln0130

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Owen, another thing is to not weigh "rules of thumb " too heavily. The only rule of thumb in ASL is there is no rule of thumb. What is considered absurd 95% of the time may be exactly what should be done in a particular situation. One of the Joy's of the game is knowing when each one should apply. Let me know when you get there, I'd like to live vicariously through you when you do ;-).
 
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