A Little Help With Trying To "Intensive Fire" In The Defensive Final Fire Phase...........

ppalma3010

Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
125
Reaction score
5
Location
ohio
Country
llUnited States
I have had a few games recently where this subject has come up and am just trying to get a handle on it.

I guess from what I have been reading and such the following is...........

--------A gun may not Int Fire in the final fire phase unless it is marked with a first fire counter and then may only Int Fire at an adjacent target.

Is there other rules here that I may be missing, thanks and enjoy the day.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
--------A gun may not Int Fire in the final fire phase unless it is marked with a first fire counter and then may only Int Fire at an adjacent target.

Is there other rules here that I may be missing, thanks and enjoy the day.
That's pretty much the rule. You can't go into the DFPh unmarked and use Intensive Fire in that DFPh. If you go into the DFPh marked with a First Fire counter, you can only (intensive) fire adjacent.

JR
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,426
Reaction score
3,364
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
The key is recalling tgat if you fire in the defensive fire phase and lose for you are marked with a final fire counter. Units marked final fire may not intensive fire.
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
Some one named JRV made up this little check list of sorts...


Intensive Fire IS Permitted:

  1. In its Prep Fire Phase. (C5.6)
  2. In its Movement Phase as Bounding First Fire (vehicular only). (D3.3, D3.32 and in accordance with D3.51, ie the IF shot must be from the same hex the vehicle lost ROF in.)
  3. In its Advancing Fire Phase by an Infantry unit marked with Opportunity Fire. (A7.25, C5.6)
  4. When marked First Fire during the enemy Movement Phase. (A8.1)
  5. As OVR Prevention during the enemy Movement Phase (non-vehicular Gun only). (C5.64)
  6. When marked First Fire in its Defensive Fire Phase (ie “Big D”) but only at a same-hex or adjacent target. (A8.4-.41)
Intensive Fire NOT Permitted:

A Gun cannot use IF in the Defensive Fire Phase if it begins that phase unmarked by a fire counter, as once it's ROF (if any) is used up it becomes marked Final Fire. A Gun marked Final Fire cannot use IF. (A8.4-.41)
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I can't say I remember making up a list like that, but who knows. Two things that I have seen (attempted to be) misplayed is beginning the DFPh unmarked, losing ROF and trying to use IF. I am sure I too believed that was ok at some point. The other is that during the enemy MPh you can IF at any range and no matter what other enemy units are around, including closer than the IF target, but during the DFPh you can only IF adjacent. That I had wrong as well.

IF during the PFPh: SMOKE, late-game. IF during the AFPh: never happens, although if it did, there'd be a great story.

JR
 

ColinJ

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
129
Reaction score
107
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
Doesn't item 3, in Justicar's\JRV's IF listing, also apply to Vehicular mounted Guns too?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Doesn't item 3, in Justicar's\JRV's IF listing, also apply to Vehicular mounted Guns too?
Opportunity Fire can't be used by vehicles [A7.25]. If you've been using Op Fire with vehicles, stop it.

JR
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
I can't say I remember making up a list like that, but who knows. Two things that I have seen (attempted to be) misplayed is beginning the DFPh unmarked, losing ROF and trying to use IF. I am sure I too believed that was ok at some point. The other is that during the enemy MPh you can IF at any range and no matter what other enemy units are around, including closer than the IF target, but during the DFPh you can only IF adjacent. That I had wrong as well.

IF during the PFPh: SMOKE, late-game. IF during the AFPh: never happens, although if it did, there'd be a great story.

JR
I thought it was you?...Klas? But it came from here on GS. The other one I have is you as I certainly married it so...



Moving/Non-moving, Stopped/Non-stopped example.


A vehicle begins its MPh. It has two Riders, an 8-0 and a 2-4-7 HS. It is not In Motion (which is a state outside of its MPh; during its MPh it is either Stopped or not Stopped).
  1. It expends one MP to fire a sD. It is Stopped. It is not a Moving Target.
  2. It expends one MP to Start. It is not Stopped. It is not a Moving Target.
  3. It expends one MP to change CA. It is not Stopped. It is not a Moving Target.
  4. It expends one MP to Stop. It is Stopped. It is not a Moving Target.
  5. It expends one-quarter of its MP allotment to unload the HS. It is Stopped. It is not a Moving Target.
  6. It expends one MP to Start. It is not Stopped. It is not a Moving Target.
  7. It expends one MP to move one hex forward in Open Ground. It is not Stopped. It is a Moving Target.
  8. It expends one MP to Stop. It is Stopped. It is a Moving Target.
  9. It expends one-quarter of its MP allotment to unload the 8-0. It is Stopped. It is a Moving Target.
  10. It expends one MP to Start. It is not Stopped. It is a Moving Target.
  11. It expends one MP to move one hex forward in Open Ground. It is not Stopped. It is a Moving Target.
  12. It expends one MP to Stop. It is Stopped. It is a Moving Target.
Note that a vehicle that begins its MPh Stopped in LOS of enemy units is considered a non-Moving target for at least one shot (the Start MP) before it can become a Moving Target. If it dawdles by spending MP for purposes other than entering a new hex after the Start MP (as this vehicle did), it can remain a non-Moving Target, potentially for its whole MPh. In a lot of cases it makes sense to move one hex immediately after a Start MP to become a Moving Target rather than change CA in-hex.

Once a vehicle becomes a Moving Target (as this vehicle does in Step 7), it remains so for the remaining MPh and through the DFPh (even if Immobilized or wrecked).

Unlike a "Moving Target," a vehicle can change between Stopped and non-Stopped as many times as it likes (and has MP for Start and Stop MP expenditures) during its MPh.

If the vehicle had started its MPh "In Motion" it would be a Moving Target throughout its entire MPh and during the next DFPh no matter what how it spent its MP allotment (e.g. even if it Stopped immediately and spent the rest of the MPh in delay).

JR
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
I can't say I remember making up a list like that, but who knows. Two things that I have seen (attempted to be) misplayed is beginning the DFPh unmarked, losing ROF and trying to use IF. I am sure I too believed that was ok at some point. The other is that during the enemy MPh you can IF at any range and no matter what other enemy units are around, including closer than the IF target, but during the DFPh you can only IF adjacent. That I had wrong as well.

IF during the PFPh: SMOKE, late-game. IF during the AFPh: never happens, although if it did, there'd be a great story.

JR
What is the ref to NA on first point?

What is ref to OK on 2nd?

Just to adjust the check list...
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,913
Reaction score
5,094
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Rules was changed back in ASL Journal 7, IIRC.
I don't believe the rule was ever changed, it was simply clarified though there was some errata that issued that expounded on the principal that Intensive Fire wasn't allowed if marked with a Final Fire counter..
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
What is the ref to NA on first point?

What is ref to OK on 2nd?

Just to adjust the check list...
You can't IF during the DFPh if you enter unmarked because per A3.4 a Final Fire marker is placed on units as they fire. You can only fire at adjacent units if marked with First Fire per A8.4.

JR
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
You can't IF during the DFPh if you enter unmarked because per A3.4 a Final Fire marker is placed on units as they fire. You can only fire at adjacent units if marked with First Fire per A8.4.

JR
Noted on A3.4 thanks.
The checklist had A8.4 covered via the NOT ALLOWED section of it.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Noted on A3.4 thanks.
The checklist had A8.4 covered via the NOT ALLOWED section of it.
I think the best authority for placing the Final Fire counter is the ASOP. The rule (A8.4) itself is wishy-washy about what happens. A3.4 also mentions it.

JR
 

Pyth

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
1,092
Reaction score
287
Location
Brooklyn NY
Country
llUnited States
I'm teaching a guy vehicles rules now and both those lists are incredibly helpful! I was definitely not playing unmarked vehicle gets no IF in DFph.

By the way, regarding JRVs authorship of the first list:

"I can't say I remember making up a list like that, but who knows."

Means: "I don't think I wrote that list" [EXC. Speaker ≥ 55 y.o. -- "It's completely possible I wrote that list"]
 
Top