A heroic leader who suffers a second wound is dead directly or has to pass severity dr?

Ferni

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If a heroic leader suffers a second wound is he dead directly or has to pass severity dr with +1?
 

Vinnie

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For what it's worth, I believe originally the rule was if a broken leader breaks then he dies a la A10.2

" 10.2 LEADER LOSS MORALE CHECK (LLMC)/LEADER LOSS TASK CHECK (LLTC): Whenever a MC/TC is required, leaders must check before other units (with higher Morale Level leaders checking before lower Morale Level leaders). For each leader eliminated (whether by breaking when already broken, "

but that's just me. It is not played that way.
 

milhaud

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A17.11... "a wonded MAN who is wounded again must add +1 drm to his Wound Severity dr". MAN= smc (single man counter ---> Heroe, lider, heroic lider).
For the other hand....
A15.21... "...that it retains both its leadership (or comissar) benefits and heroic qualities."
A15.2... "If a wounded hero fails a MC it is eliminated;"... you should be wrong for this sentence, may be...
It´s not the same be WOUNDED, or take a MC (IFT, Ordnance Hit, OBA, etc.). And for the other hand it is not the same to be WOUNDED by a SNIPER dr 2 or be Casualty REDUCTED (by IFT/IIFT).
I hope this help.
Best wishes
Ramón.
 

Vinnie

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Sorry, yes , you are correct. If it's a k result or a sniper wound, he talkes another wound check. If he's wounded and fails an MC, he's eliminated.
 

Juan SantaX

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Hi all:

I’m not sure about that... A wounded hero that fails a MC is outright dead. And a heroic leader is a Hero... As I understand A15.21...”A hero is randomly created from other Personnel types (even if broken) during the course of play by a subsequent...”

I see Ramon point, but also understand Ferni question... And really don’t know what to think. I have always played it as if the Hero quality took precedence, but I doubt... any other point of view please?

Best

Pd: maybe I didn’t understand the question in first place....
 

Paul M. Weir

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A Hero is just that, a Hero. A Heroic Leader is first and foremost a Leader, albeit with Heroic advantages, he does not cease to be a Leader, so if there are rules differences his Leadership takes priority.
 

jrv

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I’m not sure about that... A wounded hero that fails a MC is outright dead. And a heroic leader is a Hero... As I understand A15.21...”A hero is randomly created from other Personnel types (even if broken) during the course of play by a subsequent...”

I see Ramon point, but also understand Ferni question... And really don’t know what to think. I have always played it as if the Hero quality took precedence, but I doubt... any other point of view please?

Best

Pd: maybe I didn’t understand the question in first place....

There are two ways a hero might become face a wound result. If it suffers and fails a MC but passes its wound severity dr, it is wounded [A15.2]. If it takes a K/ or a 2 SAN (and passes the severity dr) result, it also is wounded. A wounded hero will automatically be eliminated if it fails a MC [A15.2], but if it takes a K/ or 2 SAN result, it is wounded a second time and rolls severity dr with the +1 drm. A heroic leader is a hero for all these purposes.

JR
 

jrv

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I understand now! And why Vinnie didn’t what a heroic 10-3!
One of the useful factoids about HoB is that battle hardening can be refused [middle of A15.3], but heroism cannot. (You would most often refuse battle hardening with a Finnish CPVA or Japanese leader, where you might gain a ML but lose a DRM). Heroic leaders can be fragile, and with 9 and 10 ML leaders, there's no gain in ML.

JR
 

Ferni

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From My point of view, the rules in 15.2 talks about a heroic leader already wounded that fails a MC , and in A17.11 about any SMC ( hero, heroic leader, o leader or whatever other class of SMC) that is wounded, so according IMHO the rules are talking about 2 different situations, and are crystal clear (maybe not easy but clear).

But then, what is the meaning of this Q&A :
A7.302 & A15.2 Is a wounded hero that suffers Casualty Reduction wounded again or eliminated? One that suffers a Casualty MC?
A. The hero would be eliminated in either case (a wounded hero that wounds again is eliminated).
[Compil8]

Even more, what is the meaning of the very few SSR that says something like "The 9-2 is Heroic (A15.2) but suffers wounds as a leader rather than a hero" (just a very few but it shows that there are TWO different ways of effects of wound, one if you are a leader only and another if you are a heroic leader)

As far as I understood this Q&A goes not only far more than the rules, it goes directly against the rules, but no changes in the 2nd edition of rules and the Q&A still is saying what is saying

so this is the reason for my question
 
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von Marwitz

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One of the useful factoids about HoB is that battle hardening can be refused [middle of A15.3],
Once again an EXCELLENT piece of ASL finery that JR points out here! I will note that down to my book of tricks for sure.

You want to avoid those Italians to surrender or that crucial Japanese unit going Berserk to charge every enemy MG in creation? It can be avoided with this little overlooked rule. It would have benefitted my play on various occasions.

von Marwitz
 

Vinnie

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Once again an EXCELLENT piece of ASL finery that JR points out here! I will note that down to my book of tricks for sure.

You want to avoid those Italians to surrender or that crucial Japanese unit going Berserk to charge every enemy MG in creation? It can be avoided with this little overlooked rule. It would have benefitted my play on various occasions.

von Marwitz
Reread it. Battle hardening may be refused, HoB may not. So you still have to go berserk, disrupt or create a hero.
I can't think of many times I'd refuse battle hardening but maybe the VC require a certain type of squad.
 

von Marwitz

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Reread it. Battle hardening may be refused, HoB may not. So you still have to go berserk, disrupt or create a hero.
I can't think of many times I'd refuse battle hardening but maybe the VC require a certain type of squad.
Damn! You are absolutely correct.

It seemed to good to be true...

von Marwitz
 

Binchois

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From My point of view, the rules in 15.2 talks about a heroic leader already wounded that fails a MC , and in A17.11 about any SMC ( hero, heroic leader, o leader or whatever other class of SMC) that is wounded, so according INHM the rules are talking about 2 different situations, and are crystal clear (maybe not easy but clear).

But then, what is the meaning of this Q&A :
A7.302 & A15.2 Is a wounded hero that suffers Casualty Reduction wounded again or eliminated? One that suffers a Casualty MC?
A. The hero would be eliminated in either case (a wounded hero that wounds again is eliminated).
[Compil8]

Even more, what is the meaning of the very few SSR that says something like "The 9-2 is Heroic (A15.2) but suffers wounds as a leader rather than a hero" (just a very few but it shows that there are TWO different ways of effects of wound, one if you are a leader only and another if you are a heroic leader)

As far as I understood this Q&A goes not only far more than the rules, it goes directly against the rules, but no changes in the 2nd edition of rules and the Q&A still is saying what is saying

so this is the reason for my question
Your continued confusion on this point is justified due to the existence of this Q&A. But it's been discussed before (see this thread). According to Klas, this is an old Q&A. Since its conclusion wasn't incorporated into the 2nd Edition RB, it should probably be ignored.

The Q&A are tricky things! Ideally one should clarify a contradiction, explain the ambiguous, and fill in the gaps without going so far as to change an existing rule. The problem, in this case, is that a "correct" ruling could already be gleaned from the RB as written (wounded men roll wound severity when they CR). The Q&A therefore shouldn't have added what wasn't needed (that a wounded hero dies from a CR).

So perhaps this Q&A will soon be interred in those sacred grounds (Cimetière de la carte 21) given to such outdated rulings (Div. P3), old scenario cards (Div. L4), RBs (grottos A-D), mapboards (plots unmarked), counters (Memorial Hill, N5), and other ASL miseries. Requiescat in pace.
 

jrv

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I can't think of many times I'd refuse battle hardening but maybe the VC require a certain type of squad.
I'd guess the only time across many scenarios is the "upgrade" of a Japanese, CPVA or Finnish leader where the leader would lose a leadership DRM, e.g. 9-1 -> 10-0. Other than that it would be something that was specific to a scenario, e.g. if the leader was about to be eliminated, and the battle harden would increase its CVP in a scenario where CVP mattered.

JR
 

Larry

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A 9-1 Finnish leader upgrading to a heroic 10-0 leader is a slight upgrade to 4 hexes and requires a SW beyond that range to keep the -1.
 

mgmasl

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i think I’ve always played with the hero being automatically wounded when failing the first MC without rolling the wound severity dr. I suppose it’s wrong after reading this post.. 🤔
 
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