A Fearful Slaughter

[Ironmike992003]

In the Opening Attack scenario 6.4 when can Sherman/Prentiss go into order (initative/informal) mode (6AM, when elements of their divsions go alert, or once the entire division goes alert)?

If initiative/informal orders can be attained before the unit (division/brigade/regiment) goes alert, can aide carried orders be delivered prior to the unit being alert?

Is movement of leaders allowed when associated units are not alert?

 

[Keith Todd]

In the Opening Attack scenario 6.4 when can Sherman/Prentiss go into order (initative/informal) mode (6AM, when elements of their divsions go alert, or once the entire division goes alert)?

Alert status is a unit by unit activation. The unit is either activated or not, so I would say if activation does not occur earlier than when the entire division goes alert.

If initiative/informal orders can be attained before the unit (division/brigade/regiment) goes alert, can aide carried orders be delivered prior to the unit being alert?

No, no movement is allowed.

Is movement of leaders allowed when associated units are not alert?

No, no movement is allowed.

Not official answers but I believe they are consistent with my experience in the system and the spriit of the rules.

Keith

 

[SamB]

Thanks, Keith. I really appreicate your patience with Mike and me. :clap:

One other comment / question. I have more than one, but let's take them one at a time.

It seems to me that most (if not all) Union troops are going to be alerted by the schedule before any CSA troops can get adjacent to them. The CSA can't go into column mode, can't use road movement rate, and the Cavalry can't move adjacent to a non-alert Union unit. So working out the maximum movement of the lead CSA unit - they arrive in the vicinity of the Union line just after those Union units awake. And I mean maximum movement - assuming no other CSA units in the way, no interference at all from the Union pickets that are out front.

Is this right? If so, what is the purpose of the whole section of rules on alert / non alert and the bonus for attacking non alert units? Are we doing something wrong with movement?

I'm figuring 2 MPs per hex (woods) with an extra movement point when crossing a steep slope, stream, etc.

See the attached photo - The leading CSA units can get to Spain's Field at 7:45 AM (at the earliest). The last units of 6/T wake up at 7:15. So what is the use?

Seems odd.
Sam

 

[Keith Todd]

Hi Sam,

Glad my gibberish is making some sense.


The regimental series is an extension of the original brigade series. There is a lot of emphasis on following historic events or at least capturing the flavor of it. Dave Powell started the regimental series, and he is quite the Civil War expert. The point in the alert status and no movement is that the CSA will know that certain units will be only so far from their camps at a certain time providing they get orders.

As Dave mentions, the surprise was not at the tactical level as much as it was at the operational. Scenario 6.10 "What might have been" lifts the CSA movement restrictions, so you could force march columns of infantry before the alert sets in.

This is a system that is great for what-ifs or following the history to see if you could have done better or experience it as close to what is was.

Keith

 

[Keith Todd]

You know I am in the middle of the whole enchilada for This Terrible Sound just now getting into the first night. I am playing solo so it takes about 1.5 hours just to do one 15 minute turn.

But you are getting my mouth to water and setup AFS.

Cut it OUT!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I really enjoy answering the questions,

Keith

 

[SamB]

I have thought of setting up my camera on a tripod and taking pictures every player turn. Then, take the photos and combine them in an "animated" or "click the mouse and see the next turn" image file.

Has anyone done this? Any pointers or pitfals?

And, Keith... I make no appologies for making your mouth water. :laugh:

 

[Keith Todd]

I have seen pictures of various turns but not animated like a slide show.

Should be interesting,
Keith

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

It seems to me that most (if not all) Union troops are going to be alerted by the schedule before any CSA troops can get adjacent to them. The CSA can't go into column mode, can't use road movement rate, and the Cavalry can't move adjacent to a non-alert Union unit. So working out the maximum movement of the lead CSA unit - they arrive in the vicinity of the Union line just after those Union units awake. And I mean maximum movement -

heh, heh, heh...welcome to Shiloh, baby!

Actually, I don't believe (NRBH) the CSA is prevented from setting up in column, they are only prevented from changing formation to column. I realise that might sound like an ASLesque splitting of hairs, but I seem to vaguely recall some chatter along these lines back on CSW some time ago. Now this won't allow anything like teleportation around the woods and dales, but will allow CSA units to cross bridges etc (Pond & Cleburne in particular) without stacking up behind them until the appointed hour.
I also seem to recall the same proximity conundrum you note as well. Perhaps it is intended...I suppose one must weigh the likelihood of combat (eg, line formation) and the need for speed (column). One of the effects of the sleeping US troops is that they cannot respond to the moves the player himself can see. By restricting the amount of time the command system is active for the US initially, the CSA may have a bit of a jump on the US player in terms of flexibility. So, while the US player may have orders to 'defend', the CSA player may be able to leverage a particular unit by threatening the rear (Emergency Retreat?) or isolating individual brigades. This, once again, forces the green commands to start the whole order process over again...


PS: it would be nice indeed to see pics of the game in progress!

 

[SamB]

Rule 4.4 "CSA Movement Restrictions" reads as follows:

No CSA infantry unit may enter column or use road movement before 9:00 AM on April 6. No CSA Cavalry unit may move adjacent to or fire on any non-alerted Union unit.
​

So, I can setup in column mode? I can cross bridges? I can change from Column to Line formation, but once I'm in line formation I can't change back till 9:00 AM?

It does indeed sound to me as if you may be reading too much into the rule. But this is why I'm asking. The movement restrictions seem so severe that there will NEVER be an opportunity to "surprise" any Union units. I still wonder if this is intended.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Keith Todd]

I agree with Sam, the rule says no column at all.

[Update, Dave Powell has answered on the CSW that this is correct.]

Keith

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

Rule 4.4 "CSA Movement Restrictions" reads as follows:

No CSA infantry unit may enter column or use road movement before 9:00 AM on April 6. No CSA Cavalry unit may move adjacent to or fire on any non-alerted Union unit.
​

So, I can setup in column mode? I can cross bridges? I can change from Column to Line formation, but once I'm in line formation I can't change back till 9:00 AM?

It does indeed sound to me as if you may be reading too much into the rule. But this is why I'm asking. The movement restrictions seem so severe that there will NEVER be an opportunity to "surprise" any Union units. I still wonder if this is intended.

Thanks for your input.

As I mentioned, I had heard someone mention setting up in column (which is different than 'entering' column in an ASL sorta way) in an AAR and having it seconded by someone; it might have been on CSW or it may have been on the Gamers List. As I say, it is only dimly recalled.
I don't think the effect is to surprise Union forces so much as it is to hamstring them at the outset from responding to CSA moves. Having to meander through the whole command process with such inexperienced leaders is not going to be easy. If using Defensive Orders and Union troops are attacked sans orders, the odds are they're retreating after that second turn of combat. A nifty little effect enhanced by the 'non-alert' status at the outset.
I believe the intent-to show Union command paralysis-is well served by the restrictions on Union forces. The CSA movement restrictions are more to show the nearly inconceivable deployment plans, especially for this sort of terrain (I've often wondered why Johnston's desired plan never made into either Shiloh treatment:hmmm: especially with the Gamers penchant for plausible hypotheticals). Whether they actually surprise a USA force in camp or no, the command system allows a more subtle operational surprise to be shown.
I guess I'm going to have to pull my maps out and take a quick look at the deployments for myself...

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

I agree with Sam, the rule says no column at all.

[Update, Dave Powell has answered on the CSW that this is correct.]

Keith

Do you have the post? I looked at something like 700 posts late last night before I couldn't see straight and couldn't find anything specific. I bookmarked my place to start at again.

I do remember the 'set up in column' post,though not any later rebuttals. That certainly doesn't mean there aren't any, only my failing faculties don't recall them.

If the CSA is restricted to line only, as I recall (and this has been the only way I've played it, btw) then actually surprising any Union unit will be difficult. I can't imagine it would be impossible, or can it?

 

[Keith Todd]

Keith Todd - Sep 12, 2006 12:00 am (#4263 Total: 4264)

Portland, OR
AFS

AFS

Rule 4.4 "CSA Movement Restrictions" reads as follows:

"No CSA infantry unit may enter column or use road movement before 9:00 AM on April 6. No CSA Cavalry unit may move adjacent to or fire on any non-alerted Union unit. "

This means the CSA at no time even during setup may be in column, correct?

Thanks, Keith



Dave Powell - Sep 12, 2006 5:50 am (#4264 Total: 4264)

Correct.

Dave Powell

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

Keith Todd - Sep 12, 2006 12:00 am (#4263 Total: 4264)

Portland, OR
AFS

AFS

Rule 4.4 "CSA Movement Restrictions" reads as follows:

"No CSA infantry unit may enter column or use road movement before 9:00 AM on April 6. No CSA Cavalry unit may move adjacent to or fire on any non-alerted Union unit. "

This means the CSA at no time even during setup may be in column, correct?

Thanks, Keith



Dave Powell - Sep 12, 2006 5:50 am (#4264 Total: 4264)

Correct.

Dave Powell

Thanks; I ended up catching that on CSW. This talk about AFS has me remembering fondly my skirmishes in those woods...

 

[SamB]

OK, once more into the breach...

We played three turns tonight, restarting at 0600 we got through the first three turns of movement / speed bump action. A few more questions we wanted to run by the experts...

1. The CSA starts with every stinkin' brigade and division with it's own orders. I mean they are criss crossing all over the map. You need a program to keep straight who's going where. For example I think there are at least three or four seperate orders for the 2nd Corps. Here's the question... Can I write an order for the ENTIRE 2nd Corps - I'd have the die roll modifier for acceptance of the order because they currently have an order - but can I order all of them at once? Or do I have to send seperate orders to each sub-unit telling it to cancel their orders and re-join the Corps?

For example: Can I say "2nd Corps: Capture Shiloh Church". Can I make them all respond to one order when they are running around on brigade and Division orders?

2. Related to the above, Sherman is the commanding officer of the 5th (Union) division. The 5th Division is scattered all over the map. Can the Union player give one order (perhaps by Sherman getting initiative) and can all units of the 5th Div accept it and act on it together? Even if they are out of command radius?

3. We are assuming that "Defend in place" is the same as the default defence order. In other words, the same as having no orders. Right? (We played it this way.)

4. Assume that a division is in a "line" with defensive orders. We understand that the unit can't advance it's position without orders. Nor can it lengthen its line by extending it's positions to the side(s). But it is allowed to "fill in" gaps between regiments? It can still shift left / right as long as it stays between the "end points" of it's line? (We played it this way).

Thanks again for the comments. I'll post pictures soon.

 

[Keith Todd]

I will try my best at these,

OK, once more into the breach...

1. The CSA starts with every stinkin' brigade and division with it's own orders. I mean they are criss crossing all over the map. You need a program to keep straight who's going where. For example I think there are at least three or four seperate orders for the 2nd Corps. Here's the question... Can I write an order for the ENTIRE 2nd Corps - I'd have the die roll modifier for acceptance of the order because they currently have an order - but can I order all of them at once? Or do I have to send seperate orders to each sub-unit telling it to cancel their orders and re-join the Corps? .

This depends on who your Army general is at the time. I believe only when Johnston is in total command that Corps orders are allowed for the CSA in AFS. A conference would be best for this.

2. Related to the above, Sherman is the commanding officer of the 5th (Union) division. The 5th Division is scattered all over the map. Can the Union player give one order (perhaps by Sherman getting initiative) and can all units of the 5th Div accept it and act on it together? Even if they are out of command radius? .

Yes, but I believe the regimental commanders must return to command radius to enact the new order. In AFS only divisional orders are allowed for the USA.

3. We are assuming that "Defend in place" is the same as the default defence order. In other words, the same as having no orders. Right? (We played it this way.).

Yes

4. Assume that a division is in a "line" with defensive orders. We understand that the unit can't advance it's position without orders. Nor can it lengthen its line by extending it's positions to the side(s). But it is allowed to "fill in" gaps between regiments? It can still shift left / right as long as it stays between the "end points" of it's line? (We played it this way)

Yes, Yes. On lengthening the line by extending, I play this is allowable if necessary for survival of the unit in question to a point. But if the entire position has to be changed then ECR or changed orders are needed.

 

[SamB]

I will try my best at these,

This depends on who your Army general is at the time. I believe only when Johnston is in total command that Corps orders are allowed for the CSA in AFS. A conference would be best for this.

Thanks, but this question doesn't relate to Johnston at all. Assume the army commander is giving the orders to a Corps. The question is something of a "reality argument" in that we're asking if a Corps accepting a new order "automatically" cancels Divisional and Brigade orders. (Assuming the order is written to include every unit in the Corps).

So applying what you said with regard to the 5th Corps - the order could apply to the entire Corps, but the commanders would have to get into command radius for it to take effect?

Thanks again for your patience. At least I'm not asking very basic questions anymore.

 

[Keith Todd]

In AFS the CSA cannot give Corps orders.

But let's say it is not AFS or any CWB or CWR with a special rule. The Army commander can give orders to the Corps, when the Corps HQ accepts the order, all units belonging to the Corps in command radius accept that order also.

Now in AFS the USA can only give orders at the division level, so when the division gets an order all units in its command radius take that order also. Units on divisional or regimental orders if out of command radius, will not be under that new order until they reach command radius.



Keith

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

Thanks, but this question doesn't relate to Johnston at all. Assume the army commander is giving the orders to a Corps. The question is something of a "reality argument" in that we're asking if a Corps accepting a new order "automatically" cancels Divisional and Brigade orders. (Assuming the order is written to include every unit in the Corps).

No, the units off on goals will either have to get initiative-their own or a higher command-or receive orders to rejoin the corps; they then would, if the corps already has orders, follow those orders. I won't mention if they should lapse into No Orders status, thoughaperbag:

So applying what you said with regard to the 5th Corps (Division) - the order could apply to the entire Corps, but the commanders would have to get into command radius for it to take effect?

Yes; the standard convention for units starting a scenario out of command radius usually is that they can remain without moving. If you want them to move into command radius (after becoming alert of course), I don't think you are specifically prohibited from doing so. Remember, too, Sherman being a division commander in the absence of Grant, can only issue orders via intiative.

Thanks again for your patience. At least I'm not asking very basic questions anymore.

It always appears a little more difficult when starting a new system; these (CWB/CWR) will become second nature after a little play. Knowing you play ASL, I empathise with the 'looseness' these rules seem to have. Once you get the hang of them-the command rules particularly-you tend to concentrate more on the handling of the battle rather than the rules, which is nice.

Also, you must keep in mind that this is Shiloh, which is not the 'standard' ACW battle by any stretch of the imagination. The inexperience, foibles and follies along the Tennessee are as much a part of the battle than the actual fighting itself-maybe moreso. Even still, this presentation of the battle imparts perhaps one of the finest controlled examples of the uncontrollable chaos that ran amok there. There is so much that can and will strip control-or the mere semblance of it-from the players that they may become frustrated by the seeming randomness of the battle in front of them. Yet, that is perhaps the greatest strength of this game and this series. Not being able to react to events in the manner you may have become accustomed to on other maps in other times is a shocking awakening. This is the greatest strength of many of The Gamers lines.

anxiously awaiting pics of your game!

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

In AFS the CSA cannot give Corps orders.

Keith, are you sure about that?

But let's say it is not AFS or any CWB or CWR with a special rule. The Army commander can give orders to the Corps, when the Corps HQ accepts the order, all units belonging to the Corps in command radius accept that order also.

To expand; units on goals in CWB currently need only reach corps command radius to cancel that goal. In Regimental, they require orders/initiative to rejoin the parent unit, the "reach command radius" specifically being deleted.

Now in AFS the USA can only give orders at the division level, so when the division gets an order all units in its command radius take that order also. Units on divisional or regimental orders if out of command radius, will not be under that new order until they reach command radius.

[see above]