A cross between ASL & SASL

Honza

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Would it be possible to play a 'standard' ASL scenario; like "The Guards Counterattack" using the SASL rules?

What I had in mind was that the player chooses a standard ASL scenario and a side to play in that scenario and let the SASL system play the opponent.

In "The Guards Counterattack" for example the player could choose to be the Russian side and keep exactly the same OOB as in the scenario, but then let the SASL system be the German side.

The VC for the scenario would remain the same.

I guess in this case the German OOB would be loads of Suspect Counters which would activate into 1942 German forces generated by the SASL system.

How much modification would the system need to make this work?
 

peterk1

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I do this sort of thing quite a bit.
If you poke around here a bit, you can find rules for Guards Counterattack, Fighting Withdrawal and Silence That Gun using some SASL rules. My Silence That Gun is particularly fun I've found.

What the SASL part brings to the table is mainly just providing a variable but extremely realistic set-up for the other 'player' that is completely hidden from you for the first few turns.

I'll see if I can dig those up for you.
 

alanp

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Honza, the main goal is to have fun. If you don't have 'real' opponents, don't have time to co-ordinate with others, don't enjoy the company of others(!), whatever, go for it.

Any given scenario will take some tweaking to find a balance between the two sides. But, then, balance isn't always a major concern when playing solo or SASL. [my definition of solo would be playing a standard scenario by yourself, taking both sides; no, surprise and tricks are not part of this method (unless you get drunk first!]

Don't let others tell you what's the "correct" way to play ASL if you're having fun. [Realize you would have to follow tourney rules in that setting, of course, and if you play someone else they may not see the game 'your' way.]

The tweaking would need to involve good activation numbers and a good table for the units; nothing wrong in my mind with using generic tables (no need to come up with your own variant). Suspect initial placement and AC# would be the biggies.

Some official scenarios turn out to be dogs and/or no fun for a player. The same would probably happen with your version of SASL+ASL. ASL scenarios don't spring from the Earth fully-formed as balanced, challenging and fun so your version wouldn't either. Experiment, have fun, no one will turn you in to the MMP police or anything. :)
 
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JG53_Jaguar

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As Alanp has said...the ultimate goal is to have fun! And I 100% agree with that. There is many different ways you can play ASL to have fun. Generally speaking, you can play face to play or playing someone online through say VASL. You can also play solo, using ASL rules and you control both sides, or you can play solo using ASL + SASL module. There is a great article on what SASL is all about in one of the earlier journals...take a look. Specifically for Paullus and I we both enjoy ASL + SASL....its a lot of fun to meet over VASL and enjoy working together - let's call it TEAM play - against SASL. It works very well for us...

If you want to play existing scenarios using SASL rules, I believe it can be done. Here is how I do it: You don't have unit activations logic, meaning all units are pre-determined before the battle begins, no "?" SASL counters. However the actual AI thinking will be done using the SASL decision tables for movement and fire (these tables are different if a side is on defense in a scenario or on attack). Please keep in mind that all ASL scenarios are designed two ore more human players in mind. Now of course if you substitute one side under control of SASL system instead of human player you might have a balancing issue. So in that case give the SASL side a bit more units/change the VP Objectives etc...

Honza I would really suggest to you get yourself a copy of SASL (even first edition, much easier to find) and take it for a spin. You will be surprised how challenging SASL system player can be! It will improve your ASL solo experience by high degree.
 

peterk1

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Hate to disagree with you guys...but the big reason for using SASL when playing solo is to make the setup hidden and random...if you only use the SASL guidelines for the enemy AI, you might as well not bother with SASL at all...you can just as easily come up with common sense decisions on your own, that probably perform even better.
 
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JG53_Jaguar

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Hate to disagree with you guys...but the big reason for using SASL when playing solo is to make the setup hidden and random...if you only use the SASL guidelines for the enemy AI, you might as well not bother with SASL at all...you can just as easily come up with common sense decisions on your on, that probably perform even better.
Peterk1, see Alanp post above....of course I understand your point of view.
 

Honza

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Honza I would really suggest to you get yourself a copy of SASL (even first edition, much easier to find) and take it for a spin. You will be surprised how challenging SASL system player can be! It will improve your ASL solo experience by high degree.
Hi Jaguar,

I have both SASL I & II. Its just that I have never sat down with it and read the rules. I'm really just fathoming out other players opinion of this system and what its potential is.

For a solo player it really does sound as though it has a huge potential - not just with Solitaire Missions but with standard and DYO ASL too.

However I'm stuffed for time at the moment because I'm enjoying normal solo play so much. The trouble with ASL is there is SOOO much of it. VASL is calling me to pay it some attention too!

As is playing entire CG's solo etc. etc. LOL, its great.
 

bos

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If you use the SASL rules to manage the existing order of battle for a balanced regular scenario, you will win easily. In SASL you are usually fighting an opponent who greatly outnumbers you but suffers from a lack of coordinated leadership :D.

You might be able to convert an existing scenario into a SASL scenario if you come up with reasonable ? placement and AC number.
 

kcole4001

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Combining SASL rules with a known OOB in a regular scenario may be possible, but trying to balance it out might easily become too much work for too little enjoyment.
I don't really know however, as I 've never tried it!

I have played solo many times, and have enjoyed it greatly, and am now working my way through a home-grown SASL campaign.
As I see it so far, SASL's strength is the fact that the enemy OOB is unknown, and that lergely throughout the whole scenario.

Solo play can become sterile quickly since there is really no HIP or surprises, but can become more interesting if you play one side 'straight', as in simple straightforward tactics, keeping a solid cautious advance or defence and play the other side as more of a gambler.
It still feels a little artificial, but makes a different game of it.

Face to face, solo, and SASL are three different flavors of the same system, and each have their own merits, but enjoyment should be the main objective in all three.
 

Joao Lima

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Would it be possible to play a 'standard' ASL scenario; like "The Guards Counterattack" using the SASL rules?

What I had in mind was that the player chooses a standard ASL scenario and a side to play in that scenario and let the SASL system play the opponent.
...
I do that every week, sometimes with more than one scenario.

The rules of thumb were posted before , somewhere on this forum.

It provides a great way to enjoy regular scenarios, you may not get exactelly the enemy OOB , but it always goes pretty close. Some scenarios lend themselves better than other , from my experience, SASL defending, scenarios with well defined victory conditions (SASL must defend 1/2... building/locations), scenarios not requiring overly 'imaginative' defending.

I must say it's highly enjoyable.
 

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I have tinkered with playing a scenario as the ATTACKER for both sides, using SASL rules for Friendly units; the DEFENDER is Activated, etc., as per the SASL Enemy rules.

The goal is to play each side as well as possible, and let the system control the enemy units. It's fun; I wouldn't say it is necessarily balanced. And there are certainly issues with FoW when concealment/HIP is involved.

Bruce
 

Treadhead

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If I'm not mistaken, the original 'solitaire' system was conceived as a system to play 'regular' scenarios solo. I don't know the particulars.

But I believe SASL is not what was originally intended.


Bruce
 

peterk1

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but trying to balance it out might easily become too much work for too little enjoyment.
I don't really know however, as I 've never tried it!
It's not much work at all.

If a German OOB for a scenario has 10 467s in it, you just use 20 Suspect counters, choose halfway intelligent locations for them and make the AC = 3. 50% of them activate and activations in general come out to a single squad and voila...you get more or less the original scenario's OOB. Using that rule of thumb you're 90% there.

And the human player has to play the first few turns as he would in a FtF game...where he's not sure where everything is.

It does work and is tons of fun and every play comes out differently.
 

Honza

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I do that every week, sometimes with more than one scenario.
The rules of thumb were posted before , somewhere on this forum.
It provides a great way to enjoy regular scenarios, you may not get exactelly the enemy OOB , but it always goes pretty close. Some scenarios lend themselves better than other , from my experience, SASL defending, scenarios with well defined victory conditions (SASL must defend 1/2... building/locations), scenarios not requiring overly 'imaginative' defending.
I must say it's highly enjoyable.
Hi Joao,

What 'generation tables' do you use for the SASL side? In other words how do you work out what the 'enemy' OOB is? Do you base the generation table on what units were in the original scenario or do you allow greater scope for the SASL 'opponent'?

Thanks.
 

alanp

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If a German OOB for a scenario has 10 467s in it, you just use 20 Suspect counters, choose halfway intelligent locations for them and make the AC = 3. 50% of them activate and activations in general come out to a single squad and voila...you get more or less the original scenario's OOB. Using that rule of thumb you're 90% there.
Now, this may work for some scenarios, but if you think that the SASL fire and movement rules are equivalent to a human opponent, then I beg to differ! A human is given 10 se, say, because he'll be smart enough to use them properly. I have held off 99 squads with very few Defenders in the Human Wave SASL scenario.
If you're going to be the DEFENDER, I'd recommend at least figuring out how to make sure that double the scenario-given ATTACKER OoB. [you can still use peter's method, just make sure 20-30 se will generally be activated. The turn length still may be an issue sometimes.) Also like others, I'd recommend taking the ATTACKER side because SASL rocks for FoW and that's what's missing for me in many published scenario designed for two people.

This is the balance issue some have mentioned.
But, really, balance is an issue to make it fun and challenging for both players; SASL has one player--you--and that's the only one you need to 'balance' the fun+challenge vs. boredom/frustration.
A lot of SASL players are newer and half of the 'challenge' is using all of the rules or learning good game tactics.
Get that down and you're doing fine.
 

alanp

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Hi Joao,

What 'generation tables' do you use for the SASL side? In other words how do you work out what the 'enemy' OOB is? Do you base the generation table on what units were in the original scenario or do you allow greater scope for the SASL 'opponent'?
Some scenarios have a certain piece of equipment--a killer tank, 10-2 leader or HIP Gun--key to one side or the other. Either stay away from these scenarios or make sure the key piece shows up at some point. (the first AFV/Gun generated is the specific one from the scenario card, say.)

Oh, one more thing: the C&C rules make the turn limit on many scenario unrealistic. Use the C&C--they are the next best thing for SASL after the FoW from Suspects--but have fun and don't worry about the time limit as a top priority.
 
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Joao Lima

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Hi Joao,

What 'generation tables' do you use for the SASL side? In other words how do you work out what the 'enemy' OOB is? Do you base the generation table on what units were in the original scenario or do you allow greater scope for the SASL 'opponent'?

Thanks.
Just drop me your email by PM and I'll send you a worked out instruction for one of the scenarios.
 
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Attached is a pdf with a solo methodology. Author is Mike O'Leary. I had downloaded it from delwood's SASLA page before the link went dead.

I've not used it personally, but the text describes it as a methodology to add fog of war into scenarios when playing solo (it may have preceded the offical SASL module).
 
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