A crazy man inhabits the White House

Sparafucil3

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As for your view that we need to be spending all the money we do on the military in order to 'keep the wolves at bay' is one I neither agree is wise, economically feasible, or necessary. That policy is a great way to go broke, which is exactly what we've done to ourselves at the expense of infrastructure, education, medical care and overall decency.
I grant your wish. The MIC is gone. What you replacing the tax-base with? You want to spend on social program--a laudable usage of tax revenue--but you have to have something to tax. All that buying leads to sales-tax. All those corporations pay taxes--we can argue whether it should be more in another thread. All those employees pay tax. All those employees buy goods and services generating more sales tax, more jobs creating more income tax, etc. I am OK with the concept of phasing out or removing the MIC but we better have someplace else to go to next--and quickly--or it will only make things worse. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
 

DWPetros

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A fiscally conservative, socially liberal candidate would win a landslide. -- jim
I assume you mean from the GOP? Didn't the GOP try to float one of those type in 2016? Jeb comes to mind.

I'd like to hear how you move the GOP towards rationality in these current times. The GOP has become the party of one - Dear Leader Trump. I don't see that changing, do you?
 

DWPetros

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I grant your wish. The MIC is gone. What you replacing the tax-base with? You want to spend on social program--a laudable usage of tax revenue--but you have to have something to tax. All that buying leads to sales-tax. All those corporations pay taxes--we can argue whether it should be more in another thread. All those employees pay tax. All those employees buy goods and services generating more sales tax, more jobs creating more income tax, etc. I am OK with the concept of phasing out or removing the MIC but we better have someplace else to go to next--and quickly--or it will only make things worse. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
Right. I also question (see above) the ability to go from guns to butter without tipping the whole cart. Easier to think about than to do. I have no answer.
 

TopT

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Time will tell. Using recent data and social behavior is increasingly becoming less relevant. We're not in Kansas anymore.

As for your view that we need to be spending all the money we do on the military in order to 'keep the wolves at bay' is one I neither agree is wise, economically feasible, or necessary. That policy is a great way to go broke, which is exactly what we've done to ourselves at the expense of infrastructure, education, medical care and overall decency.

Keeping the military spending at today's pace is a policy based on both the greed of the MIC, their enablers, and perpetrated by fear. Did you not hear Eisenhower's assessment about the MIC? Why are we not paying heed to his advice? Have events changed since 1960 in this respect?

The question that I ask is how to maintain a relatively strong economy during the process of changing industry from guns to butter. That's a much harder task than imagining a country not dedicated to war-making.

You don't follow any of the history of this forum. I, 30 yr Marine Corps veteran, have never advocated for the DoD spending that we are doing at this moment. Ever. There has to be a balance between social programs & military programs. You don't get the former without taking care of the latter. Russia & China won't let you. No matter what you and Alexandria might think.
 

TopT

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I assume you mean from the GOP? Didn't the GOP try to float one of those type in 2016? Jeb comes to mind.

I'd like to hear how you move the GOP towards rationality in these current times. The GOP has become the party of one - Dear Leader Trump. I don't see that changing, do you?
They have to crash and burn. The former Republican party is no more.
 

DWPetros

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They have to crash and burn. The former Republican party is no more.
Right, no question. And you think that a 'moderate' stands a chance in today's political climate? (who? why?)
Do you think reason and rationality will prevail soon that will bring people together in the middle? I'll have whatever it is you're drinking, because I'm not seeing that from this angle.
 

DWPetros

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There has to be a balance between social programs & military programs. You don't get the former without taking care of the latter. Russia & China won't let you. No matter what you and Alexandria might think.
(previously you say)
You version of the government would be to strip the DoD to try and support your social agenda (ala Bill Clinton) and look what that did for us. Can anyone say OBL?!? It is what started us on the path we are on right now.
If I understand your comments, you say spend on the military first and foremost, and then later if we've kept Russia and China (the wolves I assume) safely at bay, we can then afford to have nice things. Oh, and that only fairies believe otherwise.

I say BS. Your position is exactly what the MIC propagandists and their allies have been spewing for decades and everything they've wished for - a populace believing that endless wars against never ending villains is necessary. We're kept thinking that way by the very money that is made by such thinking (our taxes). It's Orwellian, naïve, and is exactly why we're where we are - not because of Chinese and Russian aggression. You should know better having seen it from the inside.

“It was curious to think that the sky was the same for everybody, in Eurasia or Eastasia as well as here. And the people under the sky were also very much the same--everywhere, all over the world, hundreds or thousands of millions of people just like this, people ignorant of one another's existence, held apart by walls of hatred and lies, and yet almost exactly the same--people who had never learned to think but were storing up in their hearts and bellies and muscles the power that would one day overturn the world.”
― George Orwell, 1984
 

TopT

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Right, no question. And you think that a 'moderate' stands a chance in today's political climate? (who? why?)
Do you think reason and rationality will prevail soon that will bring people together in the middle? I'll have whatever it is you're drinking, because I'm not seeing that from this angle.
I am and always will be a moderate. I think a Biden/ Kamala Harris ticket would easily win. Biden stays for the 1st 4 and then steps down for Harris to run for the next 8.
Nikki Haley is going to be formidable in 2024.

The reason and rationale will come once the Republican Party crashes and burns and people(s) realize what a mess they have made of the country and agree to move back towards the center. You cannot move to the music of the AOC's of the country. Pelosi gets it, she really does and we are lucky to have her as the Speaker of the House at this moment. Ryan was a pussy and McCarthy is a moron.
 

DWPetros

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I am and always will be a moderate. I think a Biden/ Kamala Harris ticket would easily win. Biden stays for the 1st 4 and then steps down for Harris to run for the next 8.
Nikki Haley is going to be formidable in 2024.
The reason and rationale will come once the Republican Party crashes and burns and people(s) realize what a mess they have made of the country and agree to move back towards the center. You cannot move to the music of the AOC's of the country. Pelosi gets it, she really does and we are lucky to have her as the Speaker of the House at this moment. Ryan was a pussy and McCarthy is a moron.
I also think and hope that most people believe moderation is best. I'd also like to think that we live in moderate-minded times but we don't unfortunately. I don't think the so-called 'moderates' will prevail in the near future either. My argument is that people like AOC are the real moderates and reflect the majority mainstream views (see above polls by Gallup / Pew); namely environmental concerns, halting the runaway income inequality, raining in corporate greed, money out of elections, etc.. The 'mainstream' (corporate/profit driven) media (see MSNBC, FOX) likes to paint her and other progressives as wild-eyed fanatics. They aren't.

Unfortunately also, a large percent of Americans like very much what Trump and his miscreants are cooking up. They like his anger, cruelty, bigotry, hatred and willingness to stand up and announce it proudly. I'd like to think they'll wake up someday too, but the heady excitement of being able to stand up and loudly say 'FU - I hate (fill in the blank) and am proud of it!' - is something they'll likely not want to give up anytime soon. No, they're not having your moderates either. They want demagogues like Trump who gives them cover.
 
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TopT

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If I understand your comments, you say spend on the military first and foremost, and if we're strong enough to keep Russia and China (the wolves I assume), we can then afford to have nice things. Oh, and that only fairies believe otherwise.

I say BS. Your position is exactly what the MIC propagandists and their allies have been spewing for decades and everything they've wished for - endless wars against never ending villains. We're kept thinking that way by the very money (taxes) that is made by such thinking. It's Orwellian, naïve, and is exactly why we're where we are - not because of Chinese and Russian aggression. You should know better having seen it from the inside.

“It was curious to think that the sky was the same for everybody, in Eurasia or Eastasia as well as here. And the people under the sky were also very much the same--everywhere, all over the world, hundreds or thousands of millions of people just like this, people ignorant of one another's existence, held apart by walls of hatred and lies, and yet almost exactly the same--people who had never learned to think but were storing up in their hearts and bellies and muscles the power that would one day overturn the world.”
― George Orwell, 1984
No, that is not my position. That is what you would like to say for me. You take the position of my way or the highway. That will get you what you have right now in Politics. I said and have said, repeatedly, there has to be a balance. You are not going to get your 'free' healthcare, food, or whatever without someway to keep the 'wolves at bay'. Do you think for 1 second that our strength doesn't:

keep China from taking Taiwan -We are the only country that stops them, US
keep China from assuming control of Philipines -their Navies would take over ALL shipping in the South China Sea and choke off any dissent)
keep China from assuming control of Vietnam -their Navies would take over ALL shipping in the South China Sea and choke off any dissent)
keep Russia from out right seizing Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia -You think NATO (w/out us) could have any hope of stopping them?
keep Russia from out right seizing Ukraine -again the NATO question?
The Russians are moving into Turkey and will split Turkey from NATO sooner rather than later

Those are just the big things that by just our presence we stop. Both countries have no regard for any other country on the face of this earth. Like I said to you, without the US of A and the money they spend on DoD, you will have bigger problems to worry about other than "who's paying for my cough medicine?".

Why do you keep posting nonsensical phrases that people have said like it makes any of your posts as gospel. Have you ever been anywhere? Seen anything? Been to another country that certainly doesn't have our laws, beliefs, or customs in mind? They will kill you and sleep very peacefully. You are their enemy and you will not change that until every last one of them is dead or they tire of watching their loved ones die. That's is a fact.
 

TopT

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I think and hope that most people believe moderation is best. I'd like to think that we live in moderate-minded times but we don't unfortunately. I don't think the moderates will prevail in the near future either. My argument is that people like AOC are in fact reflecting the mainstream views (see above polls by Gallup / Pew); namely environmental concerns, halting the runaway income inequality, raining in corporate greed, money out of elections, etc.. The mainstream media (see MSNBC, FOX) likes to paint her and other progressives as wild-eyed fanatics. They aren't. They reflect the mainstream - and that will increase unless something stupid like a war with Russia ensues. Don't you ever wonder why they're painted in this way?
namely environmental concerns, halting the runaway income inequality, raining in corporate greed, money out of elections, etc..

We agree 100% on these issues but it is not the MIC that caused this.

AOC has been in office 8 weeks! Give me a break. She is, for the left, what the Tea Party was for the Right. Once people start to truly realize what she will cost they will go silent as they did for the Tea-baggers. She does her little twitter thing, people are amazed (you) and then you criticize that lunatic in the WH for the very same thing. 😕
 

DWPetros

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Do you think for 1 second that our strength doesn't: 'keep the Russians and Chinese at bay' (my paraphrase)
They will kill you and sleep very peacefully. You are their enemy and you will not change that until every last one of them is dead or they tire of watching their loved ones die. That's is a fact.
No, I don't share your position or opinion about the geopolitical conclusions you've made and I don't find it needed to trot out personal credentials, findings or experiences to bolster or justify my position.

I think Orwell had it more correct when he said.

“To die hating them, that was freedom.” ― George Orwell, 1984
 

DWPetros

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namely environmental concerns, halting the runaway income inequality, raining in corporate greed, money out of elections, etc..
We agree 100% on these issues but it is not the MIC that caused this.
AOC has been in office 8 weeks! Give me a break. She is, for the left, what the Tea Party was for the Right. Once people start to truly realize what she will cost they will go silent as they did for the Tea-baggers. She does her little twitter thing, people are amazed (you) and then you criticize that lunatic in the WH for the very same thing. 😕
Well, that's at least something. I'd like to ask what you think of Ike's cautionary comments upon his leaving office about the MIC and it's effect on our democracy? Given his not so limited involvement in military matters, I would assume he had a pretty good insiders view of this MIC. You?

AOC is young of course. But that doesn't negate her positions on matters of importance. Just as there are many ignorant older people, there are many highly intelligent younger people. Napoleon conquered Italy at age 26. Newton created calculus at age 23. Jobs started Apple at age 21. Etc..

No point in mentioning again that AOCs positions are mainstream - not fringe. Oh well...
 
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TopT

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Well, that's at least something. I'd like to ask what you think of Ike's cautionary comments upon his leaving office about the MIC and it's effect on our democracy? Given his not so limited involvement in military matters, I would assume he had a pretty good insiders view of this MIC. You?

AOC is green of course. But that doesn't negate her positions on matters of importance. Just as there are many ignorant older people, there are many highly intelligent younger people. Napoleon conquered Italy at age 26. Newton created calculus at age 23. Jobs started Apple at age 21. Etc..

No point in mentioning again that AOCs positions are mainstream - not fringe. Oh well...
You are so very dearly wrong on the 'geopolitical conclusions' but everyone is free to their own choices. Again, I have stated my position clearly on the amount of money that we spend on the DoD. That, and ALL programs need to be cut so that we can move towards a balance budget and quickly.

To say that AOC is green is an understatement. I hope Joe Crowley smokes her in 2020. What you say is mainstream because of some polls (<cough, cough> 2016 <cough, cough>) is not even close to credible evidence.

I have a little ditty that I heard a long time ago:

:whistle:
Join the US Marines..
Travel to far off places..
Meet new people..
Win their Hearts and minds..
Or burn their fucking huts down!
:whistle:

You are living in fantasy land.
 

DWPetros

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You take the position of my way or the highway..
(then)
Win their Hearts and minds..
Or burn their fucking huts down!

You are living in fantasy land.
And I think you're living in a conflicted place where might makes right. Lets call it a day Sgt. Rock.
 

Sparafucil3

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I assume you mean from the GOP? Didn't the GOP try to float one of those type in 2016? Jeb comes to mind.
Such a candidate would be hammered by both parties because they would blend the best pieces of both parties. The only way such a candidate could grow would be outside the current system IMO. -- jim

I'd like to hear how you move the GOP towards rationality in these current times. The GOP has become the party of one - Dear Leader Trump. I don't see that changing, do you?
I think you could move the GOP to the center if you did away with race-based politics. It will be hard. It's tough to argue with God (religious right) and catering to that crowd has definitely hurt the Right. -- jim
 

TopT

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And I think you're living in a conflicted place where might makes right. Lets call it a day Sgt. Rock.
For the record only (and not to start up where we left off yesterday):

I am far from a Sgt Rock in the sense of some combat hardened veteran. 100,000 saw more action than I ever did
I am a VERY firm believer in the axiom of Teddy Roosevelt: "Walk softly and carry a big stick"

That saying that I posted above was sold readily on T-Shirts in any PX, everyday, throughout the 80's. It's meaning is just the same as Gen. Mattis's "no better friend, no worse enemy" & "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

Might doesn't make right but you MUST have the ability to kick your enemies teeth in if they cross a line. There is peace in that.
 

Sparafucil3

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Might doesn't make right but you MUST have the ability to kick your enemies teeth in if they cross a line. There is peace in that.
Most never get that war is just the most violent form of politics. -- jim
 
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