A couple of thoughts on France

Siberian HEAT

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Wolf said:
I have to confess that I try to use case yellow at the same time that I invade Greece for this very reason, naughty I know - but hard to resist :nervous:
That's like using a shotgun to kill an ant! Greece is going to fall no matter what...so I would hardly have any concern on that count. Using the bonus for both is just good planning...although just make sure you don't weaken yourself too much for the hop into France at the same time!

As for North Africa, I could see that being a problem, but in the course of a few years of game time, it is not unreasonable to think that the Germans would have at least ONE offensive operation in North Africa that could also be simulated with Shock (it just so happens it is at the same time as the invasion of Russia!). At the very least (and I know this is not a perfect answer), the Barbarossa offensive is akin to "a final roll of the dice" and if the Germans can't make headway on all fronts during that time...they are doomed. By the time Barbarossa rolls around, North Africa should either be over, or else it is probably too late to affect the war in the USSR. If the Germans don't kill them quickly...no amount of traffic through the Caucasus is going to change the outcome. And sending troops in NA is just fewer troops in mainland Russia where they can make an immediate difference.

All in all, I think there is good balance with the use of global shock given the tools at hand and the desired effect on the major areas of operation. At least in my experience... (YMMV)
 

Ben Turner

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Siberian HEAT said:
That's like using a shotgun to kill an ant! Greece is going to fall no matter what...so I would hardly have any concern on that count. Using the bonus for both is just good planning...although just make sure you don't weaken yourself too much for the hop into France at the same time!
When I did this myself I'd already done most of the work in the Autumn of 1939.

As for North Africa, I could see that being a problem, but in the course of a few years of game time, it is not unreasonable to think that the Germans would have at least ONE offensive operation in North Africa that could also be simulated with Shock
Barbarossa's about 70% shock, isn't it? I don't think that would be appropriate for any offensive conducted when a war is already underway.

By the time Barbarossa rolls around, North Africa should either be over, or else it is probably too late to affect the war in the USSR.
Woah.... slow down here. This implies much more fundamental problems.
 

Siberian HEAT

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Case Yellow is no longer available until Spring of 1940 (turn 40 I think) which pushes the whole timetable back...making Barbarossa a lot less likely/necessary until 1941. I guess you could rush it in 1940, but why not take the time to consume all of Europe and North Africa first? That is my "normal" plan, and is the reason why any battles in Africa are distant memories for me by the time Barbarossa rolls through.

That is why I said Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV). :D
 

Ben Turner

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Siberian HEAT said:
Case Yellow is no longer available until Spring of 1940 (turn 40 I think)
It was this way when I played. I knocked France out within a few turns of the "Open Fire" event in the Spring, then knocked out Greece (Yugoslavia, I think, was already gone, but I could be wrong), then deployed for Russia. Attacked there in May or so, took Moscow in October or so, took Stalingrad in February 1941. I then drowned about four corps of Germans by trying to invade Britain.

Really, this whole sequence of events was triggered when my opponent tried to attack North Italy with light French forces in September 1939. I seized the passes behind him with paratroops and rushed in all my Germans. I must have been past Lyons by the Winter.

A bit of a freak circumstance. My opponent, whilst good tactically has trouble inter-relating theatres and so failed to reinforce the Alpine front. He's since played a lot more games and would put up a tougher fight.
 

Mantis

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Yeah, there's nothing like catching someone. One of those things where they say to themselves afterwards "Well, I'll never do that again..."
 

06 Maestro

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Is there an actual theater option to "resume offensive" against France? I'm on turn 52 (as Axis) and have a news flash of "German forces re-supplied and rested", but no theater option.
I'm wondering; do I wait another turn before launching major attacks, or do the Axis already have the 130% bonus?
 

jlbetin

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Siberian HEAT said:
Thats your ticket. That news string is giving you the green light you need to attack at that turn. Give 'er hell!
Be Patient, be Patient it will be your turn too :devious:

Der WanderOKH
 

Ben Turner

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Mark Stevens said:
Perhaps I could squeeze in 'Axis bonus resumes'...
For EA2, I removed this bonus (and, IIRC, the shock penalty which preceeds it). The French acquitted themselves much better in the second half of the campaign. They were just overwhelmed, having lost all their good divisions.
 

Mark Stevens

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I never got round to playing EA2 - it's one of several on the list - but how does the French Army perform without this bonus? As we've discussed before, no Allied player with the slightest interest in military history is going to sling the best of his French motorised and infantry units into Belgium to be cut off and destroyed by a sudden German armoured thrust, so the French won't have lost them for the second phase of the campaign.

This may mean that it's possible either for the French to stop the Germans cold or, at the very least, bleed them dry in a battle of attrition: either way, bang goes any sort of simulation of WWII in Europe.

Even with the two bonuses in EA, a good French defence can inflict heavier casualties than historically. Or, do the improvements that you made to the French OOB make them relatively weaker than the Germans?

I don't think that it's possible to simulate very narrow divisional thrusts like the crossing of the Meuse in a corps level game on this ground scale, let alone the paralysis of the French High Command, so you do need artificial bonuses to keep things moving.

Ditto the 'Barbarossa' and 'Overlord' bonuses now that I come to think of it.
 

Ben Turner

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Mark Stevens said:
I never got round to playing EA2 - it's one of several on the list - but how does the French Army perform without this bonus? As we've discussed before, no Allied player with the slightest interest in military history is going to sling the best of his French motorised and infantry units into Belgium to be cut off and destroyed by a sudden German armoured thrust, so the French won't have lost them for the second phase of the campaign.
Yes. But two wrongs don't make a right.

As a side note, though, the French don't have motorised or armoured units per se in EA2 as I parcelled these out amongst the infantry corps so as to better represent poor French doctrine.

This may mean that it's possible either for the French to stop the Germans cold or, at the very least, bleed them dry in a battle of attrition: either way, bang goes any sort of simulation of WWII in Europe.
This is not my experience from playing the scenario. Normally the French can be seriously shaken up by the first German attack.

Even with the two bonuses in EA, a good French defence can inflict heavier casualties than historically. Or, do the improvements that you made to the French OOB make them relatively weaker than the Germans?
It's a bit hard to say how it works exactly, but the few tests of EA2 which have been made have seen France fall reasonably easily. This includes myself versus Pelle and against Matt Tyler- both fairly even matches.

I don't think that it's possible to simulate very narrow divisional thrusts like the crossing of the Meuse in a corps level game on this ground scale,
The crossing of the Meuse was done by a Corps- XIX Corps.

let alone the paralysis of the French High Command, so you do need artificial bonuses to keep things moving.
Mmm. I think shock is a reasonable way to model the problems the French had at the beginning of the campaign. I've also frozen a few French units behind the Maginot line, to represent the substantial forces which were kept in reserve there.

Ditto the 'Barbarossa' and 'Overlord' bonuses now that I come to think of it.
Barbarossa has been a bit of a problem in EA2 with Russia turning out to be a pushover in early tests. I have since beefed them up with many more replacement rifle squads. We've never gotten as far as Overlord :cry:
 

06 Maestro

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Mark Stevens said:
Perhaps I could squeeze in 'Axis bonus resumes'...
A new TO is not necessary, nor is another news flash. What is necessary is that the briefing matches the game. I am playing EA for the first time and am therefore quite dependant on the “Full Briefing”. The following paragraph comes from the 3.4 briefing- underlines added.

Available as an Axis Theatre Option in spring 1940 and gives the Axis three turns of 175% shock bonus. After those three turns the Axis suffer a shock penalty of 90% for two turns (representing the need for resupply and repairs). Shortly thereafter, assuming France has not yet been conquered, an option to resume the offensive appears. Choosing that option will give the Axis a shock bonus of 130% for ten turns.

You can see why I had some doubt of “shock bonuses” at this point of the game.
 

Mark Stevens

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Yes, that's what happens: the resumption of the German shock bonus isn't automatic - there is a TO which will appear as per the Briefing.

At least, that's what's meant to happen.

Sorry if the earlier threads have misled you.
 

06 Maestro

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OK, I get it. No great harm done; perhaps a few hundred HRS (digital). The advance continues.
 

Mantis

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Mark, in another game I am currently playing as the Allies, my opponent is asking me where the TO is to resume the offensive as well. The news string that says 'Germans Recovered' or whatever has appeared already. (Turn before last?)
 

Mark Stevens

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What should be happening is...

Event 256 brings up the TO to begin Case Yellow on turn 40
Pressing it activates 257 which increases the Axis shock to 175%
After a delay of 3 turns with a 2 turn variable 257 triggers 258 ('OKH demands pause') which lowers Axis shock to 90%
After a delay of 2 turns 258 triggers 250 and Axis shock returns to the usual 115% ('German forces now resupplied')
After a delay of 3 turns with a 3 turn variable 258 triggers 252 which brings up the TO 'Begin second phase...'
Pressing the 252 TO triggers 253 which increases the Axis shock to 130%
After a delay of 9 turns with a 2 turn variable 253 triggers 254 which reduces the Axis shock to 115% i.e. its normal level for the earlier part of the scenario
If France falls (Event 82) then it activates 205 which cancels 256 so the first TO should never appear
If France falls (Event 82) then it activates 255 which cancels 252 so the second TO should never appear

Are we saying that 258 fails to bring up 252,i.e. the second TO never appears on the screen?

I'm not quite clear on what the question is.

Only way to test it - which I'm very happy to do - is to run the scenario until turn 40, then trigger the Case Yellow TO and follow it through from there as per the above sequence, but I want to be certain what I'm looking for first.
 
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