A couple of crest questions

John Fedoriw

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Hi gents,

Hi gents,

I think I may have been playing crest status wrong. Per the rules:

B20.96 BROKEN UNITS: If broken, Crest Infantry must leave their Crest status during the following RtPh.

&

A10.51 DIRECTION: A routing unit may never rout toward a Known armed enemy unit ... nor, if ADJACENT to a Known armed enemy unit, may it rout into another hex ADJACENT to that same enemy unit. A routing unit may never move ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit, unless in doing so it is leaving that enemy unit's Location.

If as unit is adjacent to a squad that breaks while in crest status can that unit rout away? Consider this situation:
Crest 1.JPG


The US unit must go into the depression per N20.96...BUT in doing so is he not violating A10.51 (for moving from 1 location ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit to another, without leaving that enemy unit's Location)?

Also while I was looking for this I came across this:

B20.92 TEM: The entrenchment benefits (27.3) of Crest status do not apply to Indirect Fire or OVR, or to Direct Fire from any position that has a LOS (A6.3) INTO the Depression hex, or to fire at the Crest target which is not traced through one of the protective Crest hexsides. All fire traced INTO a Depression hex affects units both IN the Depression and units in Crest status in the same hex with the same DR. However, same-level, non-adjacent Direct Fire which is valid against Crest status Infantry does not affect units IN the Depression.

A6.3 DEPRESSIONS: Certain terrain types are defined as being relatively narrow slits carved into the surface below ground level. Although they present no obstacle to LOS between units at or above ground level, units IN Depressions are often out of LOS of even relatively nearby higher level units. A unit must be at least one level higher for every hex of range to units IN a Depression to have a LOS to them [EXC: Units with a clear LOS between them through other continuous Depression hexsides (exclusive of vertices) need not count those intervening Depression hexes in determining the necessary elevation advantage]. A unit in a ground level hex always has a LOS INTO an adjacent level -1 Depression hex, ...

So does this mean in this situation:
Crest 2.JPG

If the German fires at the US squad his TEM is 0? Playing in the past I would give the US squad a TEM of 2 here...now I am not so sure...I think he should get a TEM of 0.

I apologize if these question seem stupid because it looks black & white...I guess it is just hard to accept I have been doing something wrong for so long. My opponent missed it as well....

Thanks
 

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Eagle4ty

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I don't see in B20.9-.98 that a unit in Crest Status creates another Location, it's just a different status within the Gully/Stream/Wadi Location/Hex (See INDEX).
 

nekengren2

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The routing unit first pays 2MF to leave crest status and then continue routing by leaving the gully location. This would be similar to leaving a Foxhole adjacent to enemy to rout away.

Yeah B20.92 seems to make the TEM=0 from adjacent units. Been playing that wrong.
 

GeorgeBates

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John, why don’t you post your many (insightful) rules questions in the rules section?

Just askin’…
 

TopT

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Wouldn't the broken unit be forced to surrender to an adjacent enemy unit?

He must spend 1 mp to exit crest status basically in open ground (ie; no tem applies & the -1 FFMO would apply)
 

John Fedoriw

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Wouldn't the broken unit be forced to surrender to an adjacent enemy unit?

He must spend 1 mp to exit crest status basically in open ground (ie; no tem applies & the -1 FFMO would apply)
I am trying to determine that....if it were not in crest but in a foxhole (if the gully weren't there) I think he could rout into the adjacent orchard to escape...but here I am not so sure.
 

apbills

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Wouldn't the broken unit be forced to surrender to an adjacent enemy unit?

He must spend 1 mp to exit crest status basically in open ground (ie; no tem applies & the -1 FFMO would apply)
Actually, it is 2MF to exit the crest status ...
See B20.93 and the 3rd part of the example: "EX: It will cost two MF (shown in red) for the 4-6-7 to move out of Crest status plus another two MF to enter T4 (or another one MF to enter S4 or U4), whereas it would cost only two MF to move directly from Crest status to S3, T2, or U3. "

Next, note that the German does not have LOS INTO either I10 or K10, and that per A10.53 INTERDICTION, "A routing unit which enters an Open Ground hex ..." and the broken unit is already in the hex, so it does not enter the hex, therefore, leaving crest status does not make it interdictable in that hex. this leaves a legal, non-interdicted, rout path to potentially 2 different hexes.
 

TopT

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yeah, I think that would be correct.
 

Stewart

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Actually, it is 2MF to exit the crest status ...
See B20.93 and the 3rd part of the example: "EX: It will cost two MF (shown in red) for the 4-6-7 to move out of Crest status plus another two MF to enter T4 (or another one MF to enter S4 or U4), whereas it would cost only two MF to move directly from Crest status to S3, T2, or U3. "

Next, note that the German does not have LOS INTO either I10 or K10, and that per A10.53 INTERDICTION, "A routing unit which enters an Open Ground hex ..." and the broken unit is already in the hex, so it does not enter the hex, therefore, leaving crest status does not make it interdictable in that hex. this leaves a legal, non-interdicted, rout path to potentially 2 different hexes.
K10 LOS is VERY close, but I10 is good.
True that you are not Entering an OG hex when leaving Crest status.

I'm thinking it surrenders Based on the following in B27.41

A unit expending one MF to leave a foxhole in Open
Ground is subject to Interdiction in that hex only if the MF is expended without
being combined with the MF cost of another hex being entered;
 

Stewart

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Hi gents,

Hi gents,

I think I may have been playing crest status wrong. Per the rules:

B20.96 BROKEN UNITS: If broken, Crest Infantry must leave their Crest status during the following RtPh.

&

A10.51 DIRECTION: A routing unit may never rout toward a Known armed enemy unit ... nor, if ADJACENT to a Known armed enemy unit, may it rout into another hex ADJACENT to that same enemy unit. A routing unit may never move ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit, unless in doing so it is leaving that enemy unit's Location.

If as unit is adjacent to a squad that breaks while in crest status can that unit rout away? Consider this situation:
Crest 1.JPG


The US unit must go into the depression per N20.96...BUT in doing so is he not violating A10.51 (for moving from 1 location ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit to another, without leaving that enemy unit's Location)?

Also while I was looking for this I came across this:

Crest 2.JPG

If the German fires at the US squad his TEM is 0? Playing in the past I would give the US squad a TEM of 2 here...now I am not so sure...I think he should get a TEM of 0.

Thanks
Yep,
He'd also not get TEM from Units on that cliff to the right (assuming Crest were pointed that way.
Not sure why it's not as he doesn't get benefit from a wadi/gully hexside anyway.
 

apbills

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K10 LOS is VERY close, but I10 is good.
True that you are not Entering an OG hex when leaving Crest status.

I'm thinking it surrenders Based on the following in B27.41

A unit expending one MF to leave a foxhole in Open
Ground is subject to Interdiction in that hex only if the MF is expended without
being combined with the MF cost of another hex being entered;
You maybe correct, however, do we have a situation where all MF expended in the hex are spent in the same Location the unit starts in? I know of only one situation similar to this, namely Wire (B26.41). In that case, a broken unit on top of a Wire counter would roll to determine the MF necessary to get under the Wire, and can legally rout away if it has sufficient MF to get under the wire in its Location, and then rout to another hex. I would consider that more similar than to the entrenchment rout rules where you combine MF with the adjacent hex you are routing into. I can not think of a situation where a unit would rout from IN an entrenchment to the Open Ground portion of that hex with an enemy unit ADJACENT, especially since it can combine the MF with an adjacent hex that is not ADJACENT to the enemy unit. If the only adjacent hex is also open ground, then it would surrender anyway, as would the unit in Crest in this situation.
 

Stewart

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I can not think of a situation where a unit would rout from IN an entrenchment to the Open Ground portion of that hex with an enemy unit ADJACENT, especially since it can combine the MF with an adjacent hex that is not ADJACENT to the enemy unit. If the only adjacent hex is also open ground, then it would surrender anyway, as would the unit in Crest in this situation.
There isn't an example, but with Crests, he can leave across a crest hexside, in this case all of those potential exit hexes are ADJ to an enemy unit, if ONE of the protected hexsides were at the orchard...then he could simply exit to the orchard safely.
 
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