A bit of a moral dilemma

[Robin Reeve]

Thanks for your input, Steve.
The emotional proximity is an essential factor.

 

[Alan Hume]

I have no problem with wargames prior to my own experience.
And even some after ; like the Falklands war or the Grenada Assault, both in the 1980s.
I also will not game Iraq or Iran or Afghanistan, but that is because of the stupidity of the US Congress in believing that there is such a thing as a kinder, gentler war (Kerry quote).

BUT... I do not and will not game the war that I did attend... the Vietnam War.
Having been there I do not need or want anything (books, movies, or games) to do with it.

War is hell, I do not need to experience it twice.

Thank you for your service and for sharing your thoughts here

 

[Jwil2020]

War is hell,

I did a quick search to remind myself of the context of Sherman's famous quote.

WTS spoke those words during an "address to the graduating class of the Michigan Military Academy (19 June 1879)."

“I’ve been where you are now, and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that someday you can use the skill you have acquired here. Suppress it!

You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars, and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you; War is Hell!“

I realize many players approach this hobby as purely a game. Like chess, they enjoy the challenge of mastering the tactics needed to win a particular scenario. Having played a great deal of chess at one time, I can relate to that view. However, I am one of those players who consider my wargaming an extension of my historical study.

I got my introduction to this compelling hobby while in high school. Wanting to know more about the games I played led me to the library and the start of a life of reading military histories. A well-designed game helps me to better appreciate and understand some of those historical accounts. IMO, playing a game such as ASL is not morally different than reading a well-researched tome about some battle or campaign. We can game a specific conflict without elevating war (for the sake of war) to something to be desired. However, I completely understand why some would want to avoid a particular era, whether past or present. Each must decide for themselves, and there is no right or wrong in such personal decisions.

There are monuments and cemeteries all across the world memorializing battles, wars, and the individuals who went through that hell. Their purpose is not to glorify war, but to honor those who paid the ultimate sacrifice. They also serve as reminders for the current generation that should they be called upon to risk their lives in the defense of others, we, the living, will not forget them. In an abstract way, the wargaming industry, when kept in perspective, can also serve that noble purpose.

The day will come when, "... they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."

Until that day, I will enjoy what this hobby provides for me: fun-compelling play (it is a game, after all), historical insight, motivation to learn more about a previous generation, and, most important of all, the excellent comradeship within this unique community.

 

[Manilianus]

It's all the matter of personal sensitivity. Different things unsettle different people. I live in a city which is basically one big mass grave - you cannot pass an intersection without seeing some memorial of people being executed.

At least one member of my family was executed during the war, in a gruesome way.

I interviewed a survived victim of a war crime for national historical investigation purpose.

I also did participate in excavations/exhumations in Treblinka, with shovel in hand.

I do keep it all separate - when I play ASL, I re-live something about history that I was very passionate since my childhood. But my mind doesn't mesh it up with all the things that follow this reconstruction. I love operational level games of Eastern Front, but I don't overthink that my divisions were followed by Einsatzkommandos or NKVD troops.

I understand your problem and I'm not suggesting that my way of dealing with those things is correct one. It really depends on the man, the situation, the current mood. I love ASL and wargaming, I'm military history enthusiast. And a pacifist. If you're feeling it's not "right" to play such games because of someone's tragedy that's behind it - it's absolutely understandable, because it means you're empathetic person.

But if I may suggest something, take into consideration that this empathy that you show is more than many of victims of war didn't receive from anyone. You're not taking anything from anyone, on a contrary - you're giving something from yourself, and have great time with friends and your hobby.

We're all kids after all, and kids love to play war. Your thoughts are a proof that you're grown up kid - it means that you and your parents did great job. I guess you can continue to be kid, as long as you're staying grown up.

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PS Unless you're playing "Prinz Eugen" pack, in that case you're beyond redemption on every possible layers of reality...

 

[Alan Hume]

It's all the matter of personal sensitivity. Different things unsettle different people. I live in a city which is basically one big mass grave - you cannot pass an intersection without seeing some memorial of people being executed.

At least one member of my family was executed during the war, in a gruesome way.

I interviewed a survived victim of a war crime for national historical investigation purpose.

I also did participate in excavations/exhumations in Treblinka, with shovel in hand.

I do keep it all separate - when I play ASL, I re-live something about history that I was very passionate since my childhood. But my mind doesn't mesh it up with all the things that follow this reconstruction. I love operational level games of Eastern Front, but I don't overthink that my divisions were followed by Einsatzkommandos or NKVD troops.

I understand your problem and I'm not suggesting that my way of dealing with those things is correct one. It really depends on the man, the situation, the current mood. I love ASL and wargaming, I'm military history enthusiast. And a pacifist. If you're feeling it's not "right" to play such games because of someone's tragedy that's behind it - it's absolutely understandable, because it means you're empathetic person.

But if I may suggest something, take into consideration that this empathy that you show is more than many of victims of war didn't receive from anyone. You're not taking anything from anyone, on a contrary - you're giving something from yourself, and have great time with friends and your hobby.

We're all kids after all, and kids love to play war. Your thoughts are a proof that you're grown up kid - it means that you and your parents did great job. I guess you can continue to be kid, as long as you're staying grown up.

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.
.
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PS Unless you're playing "Prinz Eugen" pack, in that case you're beyond redemption on every possible layers of reality...

Thanks for your input, much appreciated
Sorry for the loss of your family member

You put it all very well, keeping things separate I guess is the key and try not to think too hard about it
Yep, I guess playing ASL is a way to relive a little of my childhood

 

[Kenneth P. Katz]

Wars are horrible things. Sometimes there is a righteous cause that justified the horrible things. Wars are fascinating in a way that few other things are, because the stakes are so high that people must act in ways that are rarely required in normal life. There certainly is glory, brilliance, and adventure in war although there is a lot more boredom, suffering and misery

I primarily play ASL and other wargames because it provides me tremendous insight into war that no other form of media can equal. Of course the fellowship of others with similar interests and personal characteristics has also become an important part of the hobby for me. I respect that others find the hobby morally repugnant, although I disagree (but if you wear a German uniform to an ASL tournament, I am not going to play with you).

 

[bendizoid]

How about that ‘Secret Hitler’ game ? Discuss amongst yourselves:

 

[holdit]

My take: you are a gamer, that is what you do. You have a fascination with military history that leads you to play a very nuanced, complex game because it is very challenging and, wait for it, fun. As others have correctly pointed out, ASL is very much a game. With the level of abstraction that it has, it definitely is not a super accurate portrayal of WW2 era combat. I once was asked point blank: are you a warmonger? Having an acid tongue when I want, I responded: We both like checking out the hot girls in bikinis at the beach, are you a rapist? It was a short conversation.

I'm not a fan of war, but I do find it interesting, just as some people find murders interesing and some people find diseases interesting but nobody ever accuses them of thinking that those are good things*. As young young boy I was interested in the dash and adventure. Later in my teens I learned how futile, degrading and random war is, mainly courtesy of "Battle" comic - the "Charley's War" series in particular, which I would still recommend to anyone today - and the books of Sven Hassel and Willi Heinrich. Hassel is pulp war writing to be sure, but you couldn't accuse him of glorifying it. This discovery of war's true nastiness made it more interesting rather than less, and it's stuck with me ever since. I don't go out of my way to advertise it but I won't apologise for it either. Nobody dies on my wargame battlefields, and those who died in the battles I study are already dead and cannot be saved or brought back to life by pursuing a different interest.


(The above is from the first Battle issue I bought, and to a boy brought up on the likes of Lord Peter Flint, it was as shocking as a slap in the face.)

*Update: This reminds me of an anecdote I read about the British horror writer James Herbert, who got tired enough of being asked "Do you write horror for the sake of horror?" to snap back at the offending hack: "Yes I do...just like Harold Robbins writes sex for the sake of sex and Arthur Hailey writes money for the sake of money, but nobody ever asks them, do they?"

 

[stuh42asl]

My two tours in Bosnia forced me to evaluate two things...how insane religions are..and life is to damn short to worry about trivial things..When you see entire towns that are nothing but wreckage and the only survivors are women and very small kids, then find out from your translator that every male from the age 12 up was rounded up and disappeared ..then two years later you find out they were found in mass graves..well you get a real changed outlook at life.. Soldiers lose many things...their faith if they have one..their sanity when they see to much and the innocence of their youth . I have been messed up since then, so I live life to it,s fullest each day.My advice again is this, play ASL, it is a game ,that is all.. regardless of the meaning behind it, you still go back to your safe house and family if you have one.My PTSD reminds me every day of the horrors men do to each other often over the stupidest damn idiotic excuse. We have absolutely no guarantee that when we get out of bed that we will see it again that day. so enjoy life, tomorrow may never come.

 

[Alan Hume]

My two tours in Bosnia forced me to evaluate two things...how insane religions are..and life is to damn short to worry about trivial things..When you see entire towns that are nothing but wreckage and the only survivors are women and very small kids, then find out from your translator that every male from the age 12 up was rounded up and disappeared ..then two years later you find out they were found in mass graves..well you get a real changed outlook at life.. Soldiers lose many things...their faith if they have one..their sanity when they see to much and the innocence of their youth . I have been messed up since then, so I live life to it,s fullest each day.My advice again is this, play ASL, it is a game ,that is all.. regardless of the meaning behind it, you still go back to your safe house and family if you have one.My PTSD reminds me every day of the horrors men do to each other often over the stupidest damn idiotic excuse. We have absolutely no guarantee that when we get out of bed that we will see it again that day. so enjoy life, tomorrow may never come.

I am so sorry to hear of your experiences, truly.
I hope that you are getting help for your PTSD

You are right, ASL is just a game, I will keep playing

 

[stuh42asl]

I am so sorry to hear of your experiences, truly.
I hope that you are getting help for your PTSD

You are right, ASL is just a game, I will keep playing

Thank you..I do, but like every veteran here will tell you war is a gift that keeps on giving until you die..And as they say about death.. When death smiles at you the only thing you can do is smile back..

 

[Alan Hume]

Thank you..I do, but like every veteran here will tell you war is a gift that keeps on giving until you die..And as they say about death.. When death smiles at you the only thing you can do is smile back..

Thankfully it's not something I know anything about, I am very grateful for everybody's comments here though for sure, I'm going to keep up with the gaming (in fact I have a playtest for Alan Findlay tomorrow afternoon)