A bit of a moral dilemma

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
No. The killing of civilians is always wrong. It can never be morally right. It's therefore always a crime against humanity in my mind.
Probably we misunderstood each other. I am in complete agreement. The killing of civilians is always wrong. It can never be morally right. It's therefore always a crime against humanity in my mind as well.

But it's not always a war crime.
Exactly.

But if perpetrators of crimes against humanity define 'war crimes' in a way that these don't cover crimes against humanity while only considering 'war crimes' illegal at the same time, then this is nothing else than justifying crimes against humanity. IMHO nothing else but semantics to declare which can never be morally right to be acceptable - and to act upon it.

It is, however, completely irrelevant, who uses this method or who may have used that method before.

If I steal your car, that's illegal. If you steal my car, it is illegal in exactly the same way.
That I stole your car before your stealing of mine makes your theft not one bit more legal.
More understandable, yes. More legal, no.

As long as you are of the conviction - which I share - that "the killing of civilians is always wrong", then the German bombings of British civilians is wrong, the British bombings of Germans civilians is wrong, the German bombings of British civilians before the British Bombings of German Civilians is wrong, the British Bombings of German civilians after the German Bombings of British Civilians is wrong, the German bombings of Spanish Civilians is wrong, and the British bombings of civilian colonials by air police is wrong. It is always wrong.

And it's completely unrealistic to think that, if one side does it, the other side will stop short.
Granted. Yet it remains always wrong.

von Marwitz
 

lightspeed

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
485
Reaction score
440
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
Interesting discussion.

I played ASL with someone who, late in the game, took prisoners. Because of
the situation, it was a poor choice for him, and ended up biting him in the backside.
In the post-game discussion, I asked why (on earth) did he accept surrender? He
said that not declaring No Quarter was a moral thing for him. I pointed out that Prep
Fire represents a bit more than using harsh language, and he seemed to have no
objection to using it.

Martin's point about where do you draw the line is interesting. I think it's clear that,
wherever one draws the line is purely subjective (and somewhat arbitrary) and there is no right
or wrong (nor can there be a claim thereto). If someone said "50 years ago is the line,"
the mathematician in me would ask why not 49 years and 364 days? And, by induction,
everyone is bald.

Last millennium, someone mentioned, on the ASLML, that if ASL had no specific nationalities
and just Red vs Blue, and there were not PzVs, just "Tank, type 8675" (for instance), it would still
be a terrific game. Or if the game was Narn vs Centauri. In such a world, I doubt we would
be having this discussion.

indy
 

Wayne

Doing Plenty, Kinda Slow
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
1,594
Reaction score
989
Location
Snowiest place in VA
Country
llUnited States
Last millennium, someone mentioned, on the ASLML, that if ASL had no specific nationalities
and just Red vs Blue, and there were not PzVs, just "Tank, type 8675" (for instance), it would still
be a terrific game. Or if the game was Narn vs Centauri. In such a world, I doubt we would
be having this discussion.
... or playing the game.

ASL is healing catharsis, I suggest.
 

Hutch

Curator of the ASL Armory
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
2,457
Reaction score
1,787
Location
FL
First name
Hutch
Country
llUnited States
I remember AH tried that with Tactics II, but with Pink and Blue Counters. I don't think it sold as well as ASL. JMHO.

Again, MHO... The killing of Civilians is wrong, but in any war this will happen. But the bombing of cities should not be compared to the massacre of civilians as seen in Manila and other cities.
 

lightspeed

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
485
Reaction score
440
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
I remember AH tried that with Tactics II, but with Pink and Blue Counters. I don't think it sold as well as ASL. JMHO.
And with Blitzkrieg. To be fair, ASL is a much, much better game than either of those two. My point is that the historical basis does not make ASL a great game (or even a better game than it would be with Narn and Centauri). I would posit that the historical backdrop makes it more appealing to more people (me included).

The historical basis also allows for the moral dilemma of the OP and others, I am sure.

indy
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
And with Blitzkrieg. To be fair, ASL is a much, much better game than either of those two. My point is that the historical basis does not make ASL a great game (or even a better game than it would be with Narn and Centauri). I would posit that the historical backdrop makes it more appealing to more people (me included).

The historical basis also allows for the moral dilemma of the OP and others, I am sure.

indy
I've made the argument ad nauseam about Space Guards Counterattack. Use everything from the original scenario but give futuristic names for it all. That idea didn't go over well.

For me it is mainly about the game system not the history. I would skim over the introduction to a scenario but it wasn't important to me. It was just a game, not a course on History and Moral Philosophy ( a No Prize if you get that reference and another if you get where No Prize came from ).

That being said SL/ASL did increase my understanding of the different participants and their strengths and weaknesses as combatants. You can read all about it but until you take on a Tiger with a bazooka it doesn't really sink in.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
I've made the argument ad nauseam about Space Guards Counterattack. Use everything from the original scenario but give futuristic names for it all. That idea didn't go over well.

For me it is mainly about the game system not the history. I would skim over the introduction to a scenario but it wasn't important to me. It was just a game, not a course on History and Moral Philosophy ( a No Prize if you get that reference and another if you get where No Prize came from ).

That being said SL/ASL did increase my understanding of the different participants and their strengths and weaknesses as combatants. You can read all about it but until you take on a Tiger with a bazooka it doesn't really sink in.
Star Tiger and blasterzooka. 😉🤣🤣🤣🤣
 

bendizoid

Official ***** Dickweed
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
4,630
Reaction score
3,244
Location
Viet Nam
Country
llUnited States
its a logical question, to wonder about the morality of ‘wargames’. My choice is to let conscious be the guide.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Is a wargame that doesn't represent a historical conflict really a wargame? Blitzkrieg, Tactics are examples.
 

DVexile

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
576
Reaction score
941
Location
Baltimore, MD
First name
Ken
Country
llUnited States
I suspect every person posting in this thread has no trouble occasionally enjoying an expensive dinner out, or even just dropping by for a pint at the pub, without obsessing about the fact that quite literally children right now today will starve to death because you had the cheesecake instead of sending that money to UNICEF.

Worrying about the morality of playing ASL seems like the ultimate “first world problem”.

No offense meant to anyone here and parts of the discussion have been interesting, but still… perspective…
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,426
Reaction score
3,365
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Listening to the "we Have Ways" podcast and they made some fairly startling claims. The said that roughly 2% of GDP in Germany in 1944 went towrds armoured production while over 25% went towards defence against the bomber offensive.
While there is no doubt in my mind that the bomber offensive was targetting military targets, that was really only a figleaf as the area bombing concepts gives the lie to this.
BUT if the effect of this is to divert a significant amount of effort from the front line, does this make it more justifiable?
 

Martin Mayers

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
1,989
Location
The Gulag
First name
Gulagwanker
Country
llUkraine
BUT if the effect of this is to divert a significant amount of effort from the front line, does this make it more justifiable?
Absolutely. In fact, if the aim was solely to break the morale by destroying and tearing apart families, then AT THE TIME, that made the bombing campaign justifiable. Of course it's morally reprehensible to specifically target civilians if looked at through a 2022 lense by any right minded person. But, back then, the di had been cast long before the Brits and Americans used it as a viable strategic aim.

IMHO of course.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,426
Reaction score
3,365
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Absolutely. In fact, if the aim was solely to break the morale by destroying and tearing apart families, then AT THE TIME, that made the bombing campaign justifiable. Of course it's morally reprehensible to specifically target civilians if looked at through a 2022 lense by any right minded person. But, back then, the di had been cast long before the Brits and Americans used it as a viable strategic aim.

IMHO of course.
The problem with the "at the time" justification is where you draw the line. You have to accept that some actions can never be justified.
It is a dangerous path to go down to use the means justifies the end arguement.
It's hard to argue against a country which takes action to minimise casualties to their own citizens even if that results in non-combatants.
BUT from a moral standpoint I would have to argue that we SHOULD try to do better. This arguement falls down in the face to total war.
 

Vic Provost

Forum Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Messages
1,452
Reaction score
3,259
Location
Pittsfield, MA USA
First name
Vic
Country
llUnited States
This is why we can't have nice things. On a serious note, I think you need to ask yourself a few questions.

Do you like war? Clearly not.

Are you detached from the suffering war causes? Nope, seem very sensitive to that.

Are you basically a good person? I have never met you in person (at least I don't think so, but then I am still working through the "I just know I am typing this for a reason" thing) but my dealings with you have been unfailingly pleasant and you seem like a great guy.

My take: you are a gamer, that is what you do. You have a fascination with military history that leads you to play a very nuanced, complex game because it is very challenging and, wait for it, fun. As others have correctly pointed out, ASL is very much a game. With the level of abstraction that it has, it definitely is not a super accurate portrayal of WW2 era combat. I once was asked point blank: are you a warmonger? Having an acid tongue when I want, I responded: We both like checking out the hot girls in bikinis at the beach, are you a rapist? It was a short conversation.
I hear you Carl, my dad was a Combat Engineer in WWII and he did not talk much about the war but was at least curious about the games I played, going with Gettysburg, D-Day and Midway were subjects he could relate to and encouraged me to a small extent to play on, I could have been doing much more self-destructive stuff (and sure did at times, we all did when we were young and stupid). Once I got into Squad Leader he understood my passion for the game but until I published Dispatches, thought it was just a diversion for me, he quickly saw that there were many others as passionate about the hobby as I was and gave me, and what I do, his blessings before he passed in 2003.
I do not feel I am war-monger or someone who does not respect what the warriors of all countries have done through time, sadly combat has always been a way of settling disputes and as Russia has proved, once again, is it is NOT going away anytime soon. I realized long ago that what we do is just a game, though a fascinating one which makes you think and dig deeper into our shared history. I have FUN with what I'm doing and feel no regrets having been in this hobby since 1966.
I hope Alan feels less conflicted about being in this hobby, he is a long time subscriber of mine and I wish him well no matter what he does with his future. My best advice is roll low and have fun! This hobby rocks and is helping me retain my fastball as I get older...
 

Alan Hume

Elder Member
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
1,911
Reaction score
783
Location
EDINBURGH
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I hear you Carl, my dad was a Combat Engineer in WWII and he did not talk much about the war but was at least curious about the games I played, going with Gettysburg, D-Day and Midway were subjects he could relate to and encouraged me to a small extent to play on, I could have been doing much more self-destructive stuff (and sure did at times, we all did when we were young and stupid). Once I got into Squad Leader he understood my passion for the game but until I published Dispatches, thought it was just a diversion for me, he quickly saw that there were many others as passionate about the hobby as I was and gave me, and what I do, his blessings before he passed in 2003.
I do not feel I am war-monger or someone who does not respect what the warriors of all countries have done through time, sadly combat has always been a way of settling disputes and as Russia has proved, once again, is it is NOT going away anytime soon. I realized long ago that what we do is just a game, though a fascinating one which makes you think and dig deeper into our shared history. I have FUN with what I'm doing and feel no regrets having been in this hobby since 1966.
I hope Alan feels less conflicted about being in this hobby, he is a long time subscriber of mine and I wish him well no matter what he does with his future. My best advice is roll low and have fun! This hobby rocks and is helping me retain my fastball as I get older...
Thankyou for coming online with your thoughts Vic it was really good to hear what you had to say. I am glad your father approved of your hobby, he sounds like quite a man.

I am feeling a whole lot better having read everyone's thoughts. They helped a lot and I certainly won't be giving up ASL. I think the ASL community is terrific
 

lightspeed

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
485
Reaction score
440
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
I've made the argument ad nauseam about Space Guards Counterattack. Use everything from the original scenario but give futuristic names for it all. That idea didn't go over well.

For me it is mainly about the game system not the history. I would skim over the introduction to a scenario but it wasn't important to me. It was just a game, not a course on History and Moral Philosophy ( a No Prize if you get that reference and another if you get where No Prize came from ).

That being said SL/ASL did increase my understanding of the different participants and their strengths and weaknesses as combatants. You can read all about it but until you take on a Tiger with a bazooka it doesn't really sink in.
Sorry, I missed the Space Guards Counterattack argument.

I agree, the historical stuff adds a lot. I can’t be the only person who’s read and re-read Chapter H just because.

Great points, btw. Now back to my phony baloney job (no prize either)!

indy
 
Top