A bit of a moral dilemma

Martin Mayers

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Thanks, I recently bought a second hand copy of the blu-ray but haven't watched it yet, will have to looksee and see if I have the extras on it. Might do that tonite when my brother comes over to visit me
If you do have the extras it will surprise you how close the debate was to the one on this thread. Quite interesting. Watched it literally two nights back as it happens hence it's still 'fresh'.
 

Alan Hume

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If you do have the extras it will surprise you how close the debate was to the one on this thread. Quite interesting. Watched it literally two nights back as it happens hence it's still 'fresh'.
I just checked my blu-ray and, thankfully, it appears that I do have the extra features 'cast interviews'. GREAT, I will have to watch it tonite if my brother is happy to do so :) Be interesting to see the similarities to this debate for sure
 

von Marwitz

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Sadly some people still bear grudges though, an old work colleague who just recently retired (he is old) doesn't like Germany much because we fought you in two World Wars (his dad was too young for the army in WW2 but served in the Home Guard), but then he is highly opinionated and very right wing, I think he even likes Trump. But this is rare, heck, even my dad, who as I say, served in the war, was very interested when I came over to Germany and while he had been 'untrusting' of Germans when I was a child (even though one of my closest friend's mothers who lived just two doors down the street was German) he came to abandon all that and reach some kind of peace (I do think me being sent over to Germany helped with that a lot), he came to put aside his negative feelings and it makes me very happy to think of this
The wounds caused by war can run very deep.

Even affecting those that had not even been born during its course. And even those who spend a tremendous time and effort to reflect on it.

I am not free of it.

My family has suffered from unrestricted bombing of civilian residential areas. I consider this a war crime regardless of whether the Germans, Russians, Americans or British or anyone else did it. Regardless of whether it happened in WW2, before or anytime after.

I am struggling to find words to describe my rage and disgust when I came across a bronze monument for "Bomber Harris" during a visit to London in the early 90's, whom I consider a war criminal.

I spat on his bronze form. I am not proud of it. But I am not ashamed of it either, whatsoever.

Some might destest me for it when reading this now.

These wounds torn by war rank among the most marginal, and yet they persist after 80 years.

So it would be difficult to accuse someone of some old grudges, especially if they have some foundation. Yet, we should struggle to overcome them if we can. And not reopen old wounds if we can avoid it. Abstraction and distance.

von Marwitz
 
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Alan Hume

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The wounds caused by war can run very deep.

Even affecting those that had not even been born during its course. And even those who spend a tremendous time in an effort to reflect on it.

I am not free of it.

My family has suffered from unrestricted bombing of civilian residential areas. I consider this a war crime regardless of whether the Germans, Russians, Americans or British or anyone else did it. Regardless of whether it happened in WW2, before or anytime after.

I am struggling to find words to describe my rage and disgust when I came across a bronze monument for "Bomber Harris" during a visit to London in the early 90's, whom I consider a war criminal.

I spat on his bronze form. I am not proud of it. But I am not ashamed of it either, whatsoever.

Some might destest me for it when reading this now.

These wounds torn by war rank among the most marginal, and yet they persist after 80 years.

So it would be difficult to accuse someone of some old grudges, especially if they have some foundation. Yet, we should struggle to overcome them if we can. And not reopen old wounds if we can avoid it. Abstraction and distance.

von Marwitz
agreed

Bomber Harris is a touchy subject in this country
I have to say I feel the same way you do that the bombing campaign was a war crime
I might be castigated by my fellow Brits for saying this but I can only speak the truth

From what I have read it didn't even make that much difference to the outcome of the war as the German industry simply went underground and split up into 'cottage' industry
 

hongkongwargamer

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Sadly some people still bear grudges though, an old work colleague who just recently retired (he is old) doesn't like Germany much because we fought you in two World Wars (his dad was too young for the army in WW2 but served in the Home Guard), but then he is highly opinionated and very right wing, I think he even likes Trump.
Hmm... I'd suggest we tread a little lighter here. Say, when your mom's buried in a pile of bricks with your baby sister (my dad's case), it's not easy to forget.
 

Alan Hume

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okay, I am stepping away from the computer for a bit just now, will check back in later
take it easy folks
 

von Marwitz

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And what it leads to is the idea that "rape, murder, pillage in 2022 is terrible, whilst rape, murder, pillage in 1944 is tolerable". That's absolute bollocks I'm afraid. It's literally what your position ultimately leads to.
No. Rape, murder, and pillage is equally terrible and unacceptable no matter when it happened or will happen. This is out of the question.
Yet you will feel less affected by it, the further away you are of it and the more hazy or abstract it is for you.
If you know that today a person is blown to pieces next to you, it will affect you less than if it happens in the Ukraine - or has happened in the late neolithic.

Can we all agree on one thing, because it seems to have cropped up twice. That no-one in their right mind would tee off a game of ASL, Ukraine War, or even bloody Risk, if there were a family of Ukrainians in the room.
Of course we all agree on that.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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I'm totally intrigued. No malice intended, Where do you draw the line?
This is an excellent question!

I have no precise answer for it.

I reckon this can only be answered by every individual for himself and for each situation individually.

Needless to say, there will be an exceedingly broad range of answers.

von Marwitz
 

Martin Mayers

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If you know that today a person is blown to pieces next to you, it will affect you less than if it happens in the Ukraine - or has happened in the late neolithic.
Again though...that scenario is simply NOT happening. You're creating vacuous scenarios to justify why you can enjoy playing ASL.

If you walked along the street and someone in your vision was torn apart by a bomb you'd quite probably never want to play ANY wargame ever again end of story.
 

Martin Mayers

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This is an excellent question!

I have no precise answer for it.

I reckon this can only be answered by every individual for himself and for each situation individually.

Needless to say, there will be an exceedingly broad range of answers.

von Marwitz
There's no line. Ask any historian. Any historian on this planet. They'll tell you history begins right now.

There's some real mental gymnastics going on here on this thread to, I can only fathom, try to make people more comfortable within themselves for playing ASL. Best to just get on with it and accept that we're all a little bit queer/mis-wired.
 

von Marwitz

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Again though...that scenario is simply NOT happening. You're creating vacuous scenarios to justify why you can enjoy playing ASL.
Well, but it is. Everything is peaceful in the room while I am typing this, but at the same moment someone might just have died in the Ukraine or some other place on earth under horrible circumstances. I know that it happens, if not in the very moment but with certainity over the course of the day.

If you walked along the street and someone in your vision was torn apart by a bomb you'd quite probably never want to play ANY wargame ever again end of story.
Well, I am not so sure. We do have a number of real-life veterans here in the forum who have fought in wars and personally witnessed such things happening, possibly to comerades and not enemies. Some have even mentioned that they personally killed people in combat. Yet, they do play the game. I am not accusing them.

I am saying to be able to do so, there needs to be some distance between you and real war.

It depends on the individual how much distance that may be.

von Marwitz
 

Martin Mayers

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My family has suffered from unrestricted bombing of civilian residential areas. I consider this a war crime regardless of whether the Germans, Russians, Americans or British or anyone else did it. Regardless of whether it happened in WW2, before or anytime after.

I am struggling to find words to describe my rage and disgust when I came across a bronze monument for "Bomber Harris" during a visit to London in the early 90's, whom I consider a war criminal.

I spat on his bronze form. I am not proud of it. But I am not ashamed of it either, whatsoever.

Some might destest me for it when reading this now.

von Marwitz
A crime against humanity I'd say. But I'd argue not a war crime in the context of WW2 if one considers that the Nazis/Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe 'wrote the rules' in 1939/40/41 for WW2, and the remaining combatants really just played along those rules. The rules being 'civilians were fair game if the ends justified the means'. Bear in mind The Condor Legion "practiced" this in Spain against opponents even less capable of defending themselves against it than the early WW2 protagonists.

I've never been comfortable with the actual act (hell, I can't kill anything, I'm such a wuss). But the policy wasn't based entirely on revenge. There were practical considerations taken into account behind the strategy also.

And even in the act of committing a terrible atrocity, those bomber crews were some of the bravest of the brave and deserve a monument no less than any other World War Two combatant. Although the Jury remains out in the UK as to whether Harris merits a monument.
 

von Marwitz

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This is really semantics only, no?
So far, it has never been a real difficulty for any perpetrators of crimes against humanity to find a justification for it or to declare it legit.


If he or others are responsible for a crime against humanity, then the real Jury is humanity, IMHO.

von Marwitz
 

Martin Mayers

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Well, but it is. Everything is peaceful in the room while I am typing this, but at the same moment someone might just have died in the Ukraine or some other place on earth under horrible circumstances. I know that it happens, if not in the very moment but with certainity over the course of the day.
But it's not happening TO YOU. And is almost certainly never going to happen to you. So it's no more relevant to you in the context of discussing ASL as those poor people lined up alongside the pits at Babi Yar.

It's either utterly incomprehensible and unfathomable and war should never be 'gamed' in which case you should stop playing ASL immediately.
Or it's utterly incomprehensible, etc. but you can play ASL, for any reason you wish to use to do so. And if "but I'm not playing a game about the Ukraine in 22" is the reason then that's fine, but it's thinking beyond mine to understand.

If there's something terribly wrong with gaming the Russian attack on the Ukraine in 2022, or the Iraq War 2, or Kuwait, or the Falklands, etc. etc. etc. then you absolutely should not be playing a game about World War 2. Wargaming's either wrong, or it's not wrong. There's no middle ground here.

Just MHO of course.
 

Martin Mayers

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View attachment 22477

This is really semantics only, no?
So far, it has never been a real difficulty for any perpetrators of crimes against humanity to find a justification for it or to declare it legit.


If he or others are responsible for a crime against humanity, then the real Jury is humanity, IMHO.

von Marwitz
No. The killing of civilians is always wrong. It can never be morally right. It's therefore always a crime against humanity in my mind.

But it's not always a war crime. And it's completely unrealistic to think that, if one side does it, the other side will stop short. If, ultimately, it is demonstrated to be a successful strategy, then ALL sides will do it (in most cases).

It also becomes more complex in the maelstrom of war. Is it wrong to kill unarmed prisoners? Of course it is. Is it unavoidable in some cases. I guess so.
 

von Marwitz

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Wargaming's either wrong, or it's not wrong. There's no middle ground here.
Well, this seems to be the point exactly where we disagree.

I accept that.

For me the question if wargaming is wrong or not wrong is dependent on the wargame itself and the context in which it is played.

von Marwitz
 
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Martin Mayers

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Well, this seems to be the point exactly where we disagree.

I accept that.

For me the question if wargaming is wrong or not wrong is dependent on the wargame itself and the context in which it is played.

von Marwitz
Translation = "It's not wrong. I just wouldn't choose to play certain wargames".
 
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