A bit of a moral dilemma

[Alan Hume]

Recently, and I guess it's not for the first time, I've been having a bit of a moral dilemma
I have been questioning the moral correctness of my hobby. I'll probably get over it (I usually do)
but still, it troubles me

I was basically concerned because, when you get right down to it, what we are playing here represents real people fighting and dying and in many ways some folks might see it as disrespectful. I know my brother does, he does not approve of wargaming in any way (but he is Roman Catholic so I guess that explains it). Thing is, I know my late father probably wouldn't have either (he actually served in the army in WW2).

But WW2 was a huge part of my formative days, growing up in Britain in the 1970's WW2 was everywhere, in the comics we read, in the movies on tv, in the games we played, it was everywhere
and, as a result, I grew up looking on the Germans as the enemy (which was particularly stupid as one of my oldest friends, who I grew up with, is part German as he has a German mother)

I was brought up being pushed into church so you would think I wouldn't think that way, but no, I was influenced by everything around me. It wasn't until I went to Germany with the army (I was just a clerk so saw no danger or did anything heroic) in the early 1990's that I realized just how good the German people are (despite my part German friend) and I think it mellowed my father's outlook too thankfully. It was a real awakening for me and I'm grateful for it (I now have a friend living just outside Essen and John Tait in Munich) but still, it was a long time coming

but wargaming, yes, I very much doubt my dad would approve, I never really played wargames while he was alive, just dungeons and dragons (sure I had all my toy soldiers when I was a kid but so did everyone). I grew up listening to my dad's stories about the war and some of them were horrible (he was a cook but he still came under attack several times) so you would think I wouldn't be attracted to wargaming but for whatever reason it's my hobby and has been for a good many years

but, the older I get, the more it feels like I am turning into some kind of pacifist (yet at the same time I realise that sometimes you HAVE to fight, WW2 being a prime example of this but then so is the War on Terror I guess). I've not got religion or anything (though I was brought up a Christian and I definitely do believe in something I just don't know what)

So, yes, I guess I have qualms about playing sometimes, it's just what the game represents. But, surely, this should be no different to me playing 'Japs and Commandoes' when I was a kid, it's just makebelieve, it's just a game? Certainly there can't be any harm in it, it's all in our heads and just cardboard pieces on the tabletop (but then I think of all the gamers that seem so strongly enamoured of the SS and it makes me wonder)

Does anyone else ever feel this way or is it just me?

 

[gorkowskij]

Chess is a wargame. We encourage our children to play in primary school and celebrate world champions! Success at chess is a respected badge of honor. Any moral issues there? Gaming, in fact, is the humane alternative to real world activities with dire consequences. One can indulge those same “game” impulses in reality – as a soldier, politician, or some other contender – and sometimes we must; but isn’t it better to have the luxury/option of playing out conflict in cardboard where nobody really gets hurt? The key is to understand that it really is just a game and success at a game does not mean one would be successful at the real thing, or enjoy the real thing. Maintain proper respect for the real thing, and you’ll be fine. By the way, my grandfather was a combat veteran of the Russian front during WWII and he enjoyed watching me set up Squad Leader.

 

[Alan Hume]

Chess is a wargame. We encourage our children to play in primary school and celebrate world champions! Success at chess is a respected badge of honor. Any moral issues there? Gaming, in fact, is the humane alternative to real world activities with dire consequences. One can indulge those same “game” impulses in reality – as a soldier, politician, or some other contender – and sometimes we must; but isn’t it better to have the luxury/option of playing out conflict in cardboard where nobody really gets hurt? The key is to understand that it really is just a game and success at a game does not mean one would be successful at the real thing, or enjoy the real thing. Maintain proper respect for the real thing, and you’ll be fine. By the way, my grandfather was a combat veteran of the Russian front during WWII and he enjoyed watching me set up Squad Leader.

thanks, that is well said, most certainly helps. Amazed your grandfather enjoyed watching you set the game up, WOW

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Most of my (older) family were refugees, most starved, some died. They didn't have the choice of whether to go to war, war came to them.

Wargaming for me extends my interest in military history. It engages me on a level that spurs me on to find out more. It's almost an act of respect and an effort to not forget the harrowing ordeal my family and millions of people went through.

It's a constant reminder of what might well come back again.

So no, I don't have an issue with playing war games. I have an issue with not doing more to not forget.

 

[Honza]

I play wargames with a sense of respect too. I feel that it is a token of gratitude to the people involved.

 

[PresterJohn]

Anybody who has ever been through professional officer training above the subaltern ranks will know that ASL is not close to a real depiction of the military art. ASL uses dice and tables to generate a (sometimes hilarious) narrative, (occasionally) worthy of Alistair MacLean, Paul Brickhill, Frederick Forsyth or movies with stars like William Holden and John Wayne winning through in the end (maybe). Perhaps those writers and movies are a bit out of date but people still enjoy them for what they are, high action rather than an examination of the horrors of war. Sure Spielberg can make a good movie, but Battleground with Van Johnson is high grade entertainment too.

You can make some arguments about the glorification of war but real soldiering is an honourable profession. Also studying history is useful.

If you're uncertain of your ethics while playing ASL, wear a hat like this while you roll the dice.

 

[Alan Hume]

Most of my (older) family were refugees, most starved, some died. They didn't have the choice of whether to go to war, war came to them.

Wargaming for me extends my interest in military history. It engages me on a level that spurs me on to find out more. It's almost an act of respect and an effort to not forget the harrowing ordeal my family and millions of people went through.

It's a constant reminder of what might well come back again.

So no, I don't have an issue with playing war games. I have an issue with not doing more to not forget.

I'm sorry for your family Jackson, truly

I see where you are coming from, we must never forget and if wargaming furthers that then I guess that is a good thing

 

[Alan Hume]

I play wargames with a sense of respect too. I feel that it is a token of gratitude to the people involved.

yeah, well said, as I say, I just have problems dealing with it sometimes is all

 

[Alan Hume]

Anybody who has ever been through professional officer training above the subaltern ranks will know that ASL is not close to a real depiction of the military art. ASL uses dice and tables to generate a (sometimes hilarious) narrative, (occasionally) worthy of Alistair MacLean, Paul Brickhill, Frederick Forsyth or movies with stars like William Holden and John Wayne winning through in the end (maybe). Perhaps those writers and movies are a bit out of date but people still enjoy them for what they are, high action rather than an examination of the horrors of war. Sure Spielberg can make a good movie, but Battleground with Van Johnson is high grade entertainment too.

You can make some arguments about the glorification of war but real soldiering is an honourable profession. Also studying history is useful.

If you're uncertain of your ethics while playing ASL, wear a hat like this while you roll the dice.

View attachment 22470

True, ultimately it's just a game that bears little to no resemblance to reality,
it probably shouldn't bother me but, as I say, sometimes it does

(and I love Alastair Maclean)

 

[kcole4001]

I get the same feeling at times, and yeah, the older you get the more sensitive one tends to get to the realities of the subject beyond the tactical/strategic problem solving.

I think much of the attraction of playing the baddies is that they're usually the aggressors and so were more prepared, therefore get to do more early on in terms of strategic or operational games, and in tactical games they usually have some equipment that's interesting to mess around with.
As far as the moral/societal/human aspect & consequences of a conflict, we don't represent it in game and are not concerned with the causes or consequences outside the arena of actual combat, so I don't feel that those issues are being justified, glossed over, over held up as shining examples of human achievement.

I've grown up with a very deep respect for those who have served, coupled with a curiosity about the equipment and methods that is what gaming represents to me.
Others who don't share those points of reference may not understand, but life is too short to worry about what others may think particularly if they're unwilling to listen about a subject.
For my own part, I'm satisfied that I am not glorifying war or the atrocities that often accompany or motivate it.

In the end, the fact that you're questioning yourself shows you have a healthy view of the issues and life in general.

edit: ditto on Alistair MacLean, some of my favourite books from many years ago.

 

[Alan Hume]

I get the same feeling at times, and yeah, the older you get the more sensitive one tends to get to the realities of the subject beyond the tactical/strategic problem solving.

I think much of the attraction of playing the baddies is that they're usually the aggressors and so were more prepared, therefore get to do more early on in terms of strategic or operational games, and in tactical games they usually have some equipment that's interesting to mess around with.
As far as the moral/societal/human aspect & consequences of a conflict, we don't represent it in game and are not concerned with the causes or consequences outside the arena of actual combat, so I don't feel that those issues are being justified, glossed over, over held up as shining examples of human achievement.

I've grown up with a very deep respect for those who have served, coupled with a curiosity about the equipment and methods that is what gaming represents to me.
Others who don't share those points of reference may not understand, but life is too short to worry about what others may think particularly if they're unwilling to listen about a subject.
For my own part, I'm satisfied that I am not glorifying war or the atrocities that often accompany or motivate it.

In the end, the fact that you're questioning yourself shows you have a healthy view of the issues and life in general.

Thanks, yes, I think perhaps getting older has something to do with it for sure
wargaming is certainly educational so there is that in its defence I guess,
I guess it is a good thing that I am being introspective here and thinking about it

 

[hongkongwargamer]

In the end, the fact that you're questioning yourself shows you have a healthy view of the issues and life in general.

Very true. Introspection/ reflection is something I don't do enough of. You are a good man @Alan Hume

 

[Alan Hume]

Very true. Introspection/ reflection is something I don't do enough of. You are a good man @Alan Hume

Aw shucks, many thanks for saying that Jackson you just made my day

 

[Hutch]

From what I have read in ASL posts over the years, at one ASL Convention, a member came fully dressed in SS Regalia.
Now to me, that is glorifying war, but the pushing of cardboard counters simulating historical and ahistorical situations, is not.
It is a game.

Adding, I played Luftwaffe with my Uncle in the mid 70's. He enjoyed the game, and he had been a Radio Operator on a B24 with the 445th BG, 701st Squadron in 1945.

 

[Alan Hume]

From what I have read in ASL posts over the years, at one ASL Convention, a member came fully dressed in SS Regalia.
Now to me, that is glorifying war, but the pushing of cardboard counters simulating historical and ahistorical situations, is not.
It is a game.

I have heard stories of a guy, years ago, at the local wargames club that used to come dressed up in German uniform playing Nazi marching songs

 

[Carln0130]

I have heard stories of a guy, years ago, at the local wargames club that used to come dressed up in German uniform playing Nazi marching songs

This is why we can't have nice things. On a serious note, I think you need to ask yourself a few questions.

Do you like war? Clearly not.

Are you detached from the suffering war causes? Nope, seem very sensitive to that.

Are you basically a good person? I have never met you in person (at least I don't think so, but then I am still working through the "I just know I am typing this for a reason" thing) but my dealings with you have been unfailingly pleasant and you seem like a great guy.

My take: you are a gamer, that is what you do. You have a fascination with military history that leads you to play a very nuanced, complex game because it is very challenging and, wait for it, fun. As others have correctly pointed out, ASL is very much a game. With the level of abstraction that it has, it definitely is not a super accurate portrayal of WW2 era combat. I once was asked point blank: are you a warmonger? Having an acid tongue when I want, I responded: We both like checking out the hot girls in bikinis at the beach, are you a rapist? It was a short conversation.

 

[Jazz]

It's a game with cardboard playing pieces.

If it is any more than that, and it is to some, you need to step back and evaluate just why you play the game.

 

[Robin Reeve]

My thoughts, which are not an objective moral compass, to be sure, are the relationship to history.
When the present conflict of Ukraine started, I saw on Facebook some wargamers really excited to play the present situation through wargames.
That made me sick.
A drama was happening and some were eager to make it into a game, to have fun at the very moment people were killed, raped or deported...

When I became a Christian, about forty years ago, I already was a wargamer.
As my new faith also meant following a non-violence philosophy of life, I was uncomfortable with my hobby.
So I stopped wargaming for several months to ponder on the validity of that leisure.
I came to the conclusion that the relationship of wargaming with the approval of violence - especially the unjust aspects of it - was inexistent.
Wargaming didn't generate my being more prone to using violence. Much less than, say, playing soccer.
And the pleasure I got from playing was not linked to the level of suffering generated by the battles, but from the strategical and tactical aspects of the situations depicted.
It was also linked to my contact with past history.

There also is another factor : when performing a play, a good actor won't mix up their identity with the character they play.
Bad actors aren't able to separate things, so they don't play well characters different from who they are.
As an actor, I can play Satan or Hitler, as I don't mix up the true Robin with those characters - even though some people think that I am a poor devil in real life...
When playing a wargame, I am not mixing up my true self, sitting at a table, with the beliefs and philosophy of the belligerents.
You can also compare the exercise with reading a book or watching a movie.

So, where are my personal limits?

I need a reasonable historical distance from the facts, which means I cannot play a game about a too recent or present conflict: I would find it quite complicated not to relate to the very immediate, real life, emotional weight of the battles.
Even DVG Warfighter game, where you solo US vs South American Drug dealers or Middle-East insurgents, made me feel uncomfortable.

I would not play a simulation. A wargame is a game, not a simulation of reality - even if it tries to stick to reality under many aspects.

If I feel uncomfortable, because what I play disturbs some inner parts of my mind (you never know what negative reminiscence can be woken by an activity), I will stop A.S.A.P.

A last factor is my superego - that inner "policeman" which tries to enforce rules when you are alone with yourself: I am a too much nevrotic person, too much eaten by a feeling of guilt, so I have been learning to send my superego to hell (or at least, to limit its abuses on my conscience).
I tell that judgmental shadow over my shoulder to shut up and to let me live as a free person.

So, what about ASL?
ASL is like a myth, as a story in a movie.
It is not reality for me, because its history is not mine.
It is fun and when playing, I am in the mood of an external observer: those cardboard characters are not me.
If I apply No Quarter or send a suicidal Banzai charge, those counters are not me, nor any real person.
The scenario as it plays out never happened, because the world is not made of hexagons and dice rolls.
My opponent is not my enemy: our mutual fun unites us.
And when I am lucky or unlucky, I blame imaginary logistics services or other fantasy characters.
Nobody is harmed and no twisted motives are fed.

All in all, we relate differently at different moments with our activities.
The key is to take a step back, analyse things in a rational way, not to identify too closely what we are with what we do (that applies to our jobs, too), so that we don't lose our freedom.
And when the feelings are too negative, stopping what makes us uncomfortable can be a solution.

 

[Alan Hume]

This is why we can't have nice things. On a serious note, I think you need to ask yourself a few questions.

Do you like war? Clearly not.

Are you detached from the suffering war causes? Nope, seem very sensitive to that.

Are you basically a good person? I have never met you in person (at least I don't think so, but then I am still working through the "I just know I am typing this for a reason" thing) but my dealings with you have been unfailingly pleasant and you seem like a great guy.

My take: you are a gamer, that is what you do. You have a fascination with military history that leads you to play a very nuanced, complex game because it is very challenging and, wait for it, fun. As others have correctly pointed out, ASL is very much a game. With the level of abstraction that it has, it definitely is not a super accurate portrayal of WW2 era combat. I once was asked point blank: are you a warmonger? Having an acid tongue when I want, I responded: We both like checking out the hot girls in bikinis at the beach, are you a rapist? It was a short conversation.

Thanks very much for the kind words, very much appreciated. Yep, I guess my interest in 'proper' wargames grew out of my love for D&D as a child, (I would still play D&D with my friends if they asked) I wasn't into much else back then except Warhammer and Car Wars. I joined the local miniatures club but don't go anymore as it is too far away and I spent far too much money on miniatures when I didn't have either the money or the space so have sold them off and now only really play boardgames as they are cheaper (if you can say that about ASL)

Yeah, like most of us of a certain age I am fascinated by WW2 so I guess that, along with me being a D&D gamer, lead me to ASL (Well, it was my friend Rod but you know what I mean)

I do still have qualms every now and again though

 

[Alan Hume]

It's a game with cardboard playing pieces.

If it is any more than that, and it is to some, you need to step back and evaluate just why you play the game.

True, it's just what it represents that is causing me some concern at the moment is all