A 8.31 FPF and Crews

[Zugführer]

EX: There is a German 2-2-8 infantry crew manning an AT Gun. It is the British MPh. The 2-2-8 already fired the AT Gun (marked with a FF counter) and then used IF (marked with an IF counter). Now a British 4-5-7 squad moves ADJACENT.

Q: Is the 2-2-8 allowed to use FPF (with its 2 IFP)?

I think, the answer is Yes, because FPF can be used by Infantry and a 2-2-8 counts as Infantry. This came up today for the first time after years of playing ASL.

 

[Wayne]

Yes

 

[Zugführer]

Okay. Thanks.

According to A 8.31 only "... Infantry already marked with a Final Fire counter ..." can use FPF. This is not the case when the 2-2-8 is marked with an IF counter. Does this not matter?

 

[Larry]

roll low.

 

[Wayne]

Okay. Thanks.

According to A 8.31 only "... Infantry already marked with a Final Fire counter ..." can use FPF. This is not the case when the 2-2-8 is marked with an IF counter. Does this not matter?

The IF marker on the Gun kinda doubles as a FF marker for the Infantry Crew in this case.

A7.2, A8.3, A8.31 & C5.6 If a Gun uses Intensive Fire, is the manning infantry allowed to Subsequent First Fire thereafter?
A. No, although it could FPF. [J1; Mw] {Added A8.3, A8.31 & C5.6. SR}

 

[Zugführer]

Okay. Thank You Wayne.

 

[Zugführer]

roll low.

Of course I rolled W4+R5 and the 2-2-8 became Broken/DM and had to rout away from the AT Gun.

 

[Old Noob]

Naturlich! Happens to me all the time.

 

[Larry]

Of course I rolled W4+R5 and the 2-2-8 became Broken/DM and had to rout away from the AT Gun.

Oh no!

 

[jimfer]

HE SAID ROLL LOW! I must admit it does seem if you have 8 moral you break but if you have a pinned conscript half-squad he'll ruin your day with a 3 or some other improbable roll. Send the dice to therapy so they will have more confidence next time or get a hammer.

 

[Eagle4ty]

EX: There is a German 2-2-8 infantry crew manning an AT Gun. It is the British MPh. The 2-2-8 already fired the AT Gun (marked with a FF counter) and then used IF (marked with an IF counter). Now a British 4-5-7 squad moves ADJACENT.

Q: Is the 2-2-8 allowed to use FPF (with its 2 IFP)?

I think, the answer is Yes, because FPF can be used by Infantry and a 2-2-8 counts as Infantry. This came up today for the first time after years of playing ASL.

Once marked with a Final Fire Counter the gun cannot avail itself of an Intensive Fire Shot (C5.6 ...is available only to Guns (not SW), and can be used only if the crew of the Gun is not pinned, shocked, stunned, or marked with a Final/Intensive Fire counter.J7 ). If the gun had First Fired and then Subsequent fired and thusly now marked with a Final Fire counter, the manning infantry could use FPF but the gun is done firing after it is marked with a Final Fire Counter.

 

[fanatic+1]

Once marked with a Final Fire Counter the gun cannot avail itself of an Intensive Fire Shot (C5.6 ...is available only to Guns (not SW), and can be used only if the crew of the Gun is not pinned, shocked, stunned, or marked with a Final/Intensive Fire counter.J7 ). If the gun had First Fired and then Subsequent fired and thusly now marked with a Final Fire counter, the manning infantry could use FPF but the gun is done firing after it is marked with a Final Fire Counter.

Isn’t there an exception for overrun prevention?

 

[Eagle4ty]

Isn’t there an exception for overrun prevention?

In a manner yes (C5.64) but it is treated as FPF by the manning infantry and treated but not marked as Intensive Fire, then the Gun would be marked as No Fire. If the manning infantry would survive unbroken it could continue to fire as FPF but the gun could no longer fire in any manner.

 

[Zugführer]

Once marked with a Final Fire Counter the gun cannot avail itself of an Intensive Fire Shot (C5.6 ...is available only to Guns (not SW), and can be used only if the crew of the Gun is not pinned, shocked, stunned, or marked with a Final/Intensive Fire counter.J7 ). If the gun had First Fired and then Subsequent fired and thusly now marked with a Final Fire counter, the manning infantry could use FPF but the gun is done firing after it is marked with a Final Fire Counter.

In my example the 2-2-8 is not marked with a Final Fire counter. It is marked with a FF (First Fire) counter after its first shot with the Gun and then he uses Intensive Fire with a second shot. Then he wants to use Final Protective Fire versus the enemy squad which is allowed, I think.

 

[Eagle4ty]

In my example the 2-2-8 is not marked with a Final Fire counter. It is marked with a FF (First Fire) counter after its first shot with the Gun and then he uses Intensive Fire with a second shot. Then he wants to use Final Protective Fire versus the enemy squad which is allowed, I think.

Ah, then your mistake is marking him with an Intensive Fire counter. Though the principals are the same as Intensive Fire, the gun & crew should have been marked with a Final Fire counter when the had fired again after being marked with a 1st Fire counter. And yes the crew can FPF when marked with a Final Fire counter as usual.

 

[Zugführer]

Hm. I don't think that a Gun is marked with a Final Fire counter, when using Intensive Fire in the enemy MPh. You will mark it with an Intensive Fire counter. According to Your interpretation, how could a Gun be ever marked with an Intensive Fire counter during an enemy MPh?

And before You answer: "That cannot be the case!" let me say, that it must be possible that a Gun is marked with an Intensive Fire counter during the enemy MPh, because it is mentioned in the rules; for example see C 7.23 GUN CREWS: DEFENDER Infantry eligible to use Non-CC Reaction Fire, and manning a Gun that is marked with a First/Final/Intensive/No Fire counter when OVR [...].

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A8.3 says (at the end, added via Journal 6 errata):
"If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter."

When this errata was published, rule C5.6 was not updated:
"...A Gun which has Intensive Fired replaces its fire phase counter with an Intensive Fire counter."

I think I've always played with placing both a Final Fire and an Intensive Fire counter on such Guns.

 

[Zugführer]

Ah. I know this errata, but I overlooked the passage "...(or Intensive Fire)...".

With this errata a lot of other rules should have been updated (for example C 7.23), because then a Gun could be never marked with an Intensive Fire during the enemy MPh.

But thank You both for the hint.

 

[Zugführer]

When this errata was published, rule C5.6 was not updated:
"...A Gun which has Intensive Fired replaces its fire phase counter with an Intensive Fire counter."

I would say, A8.3 and C5.6 are not contradicting. Because a "fire phase counter" is a counter placed in a fire phase. So I would guess this is either a Prep Fire or a Final Fire counter. A First Fire counter due to first firing during the enemy MPh is not a fire phase counter. But this is quibbling here.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

h this errata a lot of other rules should have been updated (for example C 7.23), because then a Gun could be never marked with an Intensive Fire during the enemy MPh.

By the wording in C5.6, I don't why it could not.