A 25.23 Human Wave (HW)

[CHERDE]

A 25.23 Human Wave (HW)

It is allowed to declare a HW vs. an enemy target unit which is concealed or vs. an enemy dummy?

The rule says you may declare an enemy unit as the target unit -

and the from index "unit" I conclude that a concealed unit and a dummy are also units, because they may move on their own.

 

[Robin Reeve]

... seems you gave the answer to your question yourself... :smoke:

 

[CHERDE]

...then "?" may be a disandvantage to the owner of the "?" because they would allow HW otherwise not possible ??!

 

[Robin Reeve]

...then "?" may be a disandvantage to the owner of the "?" because they would allow HW otherwise not possible ??!

HW is possible vs. Known units...
Dummies also allow fire against them. They are even usefull to draw attention away from "real" units...

 

[bprobst]

Yes, for exactly the reason that you cite.

It gets even better. You can declare an enemy concealed target as your target of the HW, but if it remains concealed you are not obligated to actually enter the Location. So a concealed stack exposed on the front line could prompt a massive charge that bypasses it completely.

 

[WaterRabbit]

That would be hard to do under the v2 HW rules. A25.231, A25.232, and A25.2321 make it likely that at least one of the HW units will enter that Location. A25.234 gives somewhat of an out because it uses the KEU terminology as opposed to just the EU terminology.

Also, if you suspect that an opponent is going to Banzai/HW and the only unit that allows it is a dummy it can be deleted/exposed before the Banzai/HW is declared.

There is an art to using dummy counters effectively and that depends on knowing the difference between KEU and EU.

 

[CHERDE]

more Q

I conclude now that it is legal to declare a HW vs. a dummy/concealed unit.

@ waterrabbit

since the HW direction extends beyond the target unit I think it would be possible in most cases to charge around the target and not to enter the "?" target hex. The movement restictions ("F" hexes "S" hexes and "increase range limitation") dont prohibit this.



Next Q2:

May I drop "?" / delete my dummy when HW is declared to nullify the HW?



Next Q3:

May I drop "?" / delete my dummy after a single movement impulse of the HW to nullify the HW?

 

[Ole Boe]

since the HW direction extends beyond the target unit I think it would be possible in most cases to charge around the target and not to enter the "?" target hex. The movement restictions ("F" hexes "S" hexes and "increase range limitation") dont prohibit this.

You're correct that it is often possible to not enter the target unit - at least with part of the HW. That is deliberate. And if the target unit remains concealed, not even ADJACENT HW units need to enter its Location (assuming they have other legal Locations to enter). So if the defender wants them to enter that Location, he can drop concealment when they're aDJACENT.

May I drop "?" / delete my dummy when HW is declared to nullify the HW?

Not after the HW is declared. If the HW was legally declared (i.e. "I declare a HW against that unit") it's too late to remove the unit to stop the HW.

May I drop "?" / delete my dummy after a single movement impulse of the HW to nullify the HW?

Again "No". The HW is totally independant of the "target" unit after the declaration of the HW. A direction has been decided, and the HW units move in that direction until they is killed, enter an enemy-occupied Location or expends all their MF.

 

[alanp]

Ole, you're saying deleting the '?' doesn't negate the HW, right?

You're not saying that you may not delete a '?' once it becomes a HW target.

 

[bprobst]

Right. Right.

 

[Ole Boe]

Ole, you're saying deleting the '?' doesn't negate the HW, right?

Right. Since the HW is already legally declared. Its just as you cannot drop WA behind a Bocage after a shot is declared to get out of LOS and nullify the shot.

You're not saying that you may not delete a '?' once it becomes a HW target.

You may freely drop the "?", but it doesn't matter for the HW. The HW moves in the HW direction regardless of whether they see any enemy units or not.

 

[CHERDE]

Thus IMHO the HW is 70% a attack technique and 30% a movement technique.

And maybe deters Germans and other enemies of the Russians using Dummies in their front line.

 

[Robin Reeve]

HW being quite a dangerous move, I would not launch one against a concealed stack.
I'd Prep Fire on it, to see if there is no HMG or other nasty device that would wreck my HW...
I believe HWs are usefull to swamp small enemy defenses : attacking a well defended line, with fire lanes and ROF all around is very costly.
I am not speaking here about Japanese Banzai, which allows much less units to take risks, and which can be used to unconceal the enemy...

 

[CHERDE]

@Robin:

Do you have any experience with HWs against Dummy stacks? Would you tell me?


@all
I dont have HW counters (direction and range) !
Where can I get them ? I have BV and RB.

 

[Robin Reeve]

@Robin:
Do you have any experience with HWs against Dummy stacks? Would you tell me?

I don't : I do not like to use HW and would not launch one against undefined enemies...
If I knew the concealed stack were a dummy one, I believe there would be better ways to make it disappear than to rush a HW against it...

But, for an example, using a Japanes HS with a bad leader, in a Banzai charge, could be a "kostenlos" way to challenge the contents of a concealed stack...

 

[Ole Boe]

@all
I dont have HW counters (direction and range) !
Where can I get them ? I have BV and RB.

So far, they've been issued twice.

In Doomed Battalions (where the rules was originally published) and in second edition BV.

Not too easy to get hand on though.

 

[da priest]

MMP should probably issue a half countersheet with WA counters and HW/Banzai counters on it.:halo:

 

[bprobst]

MMP should probably issue a half countersheet with WA counters and HW/Banzai counters on it.:halo:

Why WA counters? They're not in short supply (unless you don't own BV, and if you don't own BV everything is in short supply!).

However, the HW counters, more of those "no ammo type" counters, and, of course, more acquisition counters would be lovely.

 

[da priest]

Why WA counters? They're not in short supply (unless you don't own BV, and if you don't own BV everything is in short supply!)....

Because under the new rules I find that the best way not to forget WA is to have a WA counter on every squad, near a wall/hedge or not.:devil:

 

[Robin Reeve]

Why WA counters? They're not in short supply

The new WA rules ask for much more WA counters, as you must mark all units having WA with them...