A 10.5 and 20.21 rout and capture via RtPh method

[Robin Reeve]

I always have doubts about rout rules...
This is a situation that occured in ASL 100 (or A24) Regalbuto Ridge.

British Turn Rout Phase - No Quarter is not in effect - As woods are Brush.

The nearest routing destination is the M1 building.
The broken leader may reach it, but would have to risk interdiction (in K3 and M2).

After what I understand from the rules, it may not rout partially (e.g in L3, then L2 or M3), as it MUST reach the rout destination ["as long as it reaches that hex during the RtPh, it may not use the shortest route..."].
So his only other possibility would be a Low Crawl (into K3 or L3)...
Having only Low Crawl and Interdiction as alternatives, A 20.21 applies and he surrenders to Mr "468"...
Do I get it right ?

 

[McFinn]

I just reread those rules sections. I think the leader surrenders.

 

[Brian W]

Do I get it right ?

Yes, the SMC surrenders.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Thanks to both of you!

 

[Fred Ingram]

NRBH: But my first impression was that he could low crawl away because it would not be into open ground (but into brush)

 

[zgrose]

Yes, but if your only options are Low Crawl or Interdiction and you are ADJACENT to KGOAEU (Infantry/Cavalry only) you must surrender (A20.21).

 

[Robin Reeve]

Low Crawl option doesn't require moving in OG...
The leader can Low Crawl in the Brush, but he may not rout otherwise without reaching M1 building.
So he has no other choice than risking Interdiction or going for Low Crawl, and A 20.21 stipulates that if ADJACENT to an enemy with only these two options, the unit must surrender...

 

[Larry]

One of those "learned somethng new." I would have thought that the brush was legal, not requiring either low crawl or interdiction. M2 is the hex that requires LC and is not adjacent. I have played this in the past as a hex by hex determination rather than a review of the entire path. For instance, the rule does not state that an infantry unit subject to interdiction at any time in the RtPh.

Clearly the broken unit can rout away without being subject to interdiction or using LC. It just can't complete the rout without being subject to interdiction using the L3, M3, M2 rout path. Again, one of those "learned somethng new."

 

[alanp]

A10.51, lines 18-20 state "[a]t the start of its RtPh, a routing unit must designate its destination and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh" which means you can't decide on a hex-by-hex basis unless something comes into LOS to alter your options. M1 is designated as the rout target or not at the beginning of the brokie's RtPh. The players DO look into the future of the unit's possible rout path: 'will he make it legally, given what's in LOS at this point?'

This is the way I play it. Comments?

 

[griffitz62]

Alan just hit on exactly what I was thinking. You have to decide where you're heading before you start to rout.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

A10.51, lines 18-20 state "[a]t the start of its RtPh, a routing unit must designate its destination and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh" which means you can't decide on a hex-by-hex basis unless something comes into LOS to alter your options. M1 is designated as the rout target or not at the beginning of the brokie's RtPh. The players DO look into the future of the unit's possible rout path: 'will he make it legally, given what's in LOS at this point?'

This is the way I play it. Comments?

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at with this? The DM leader still must route to {The nearest (in MF calculated at the start of the RTph) building or woods hex} the M1 Single Story House (which is *not* ignorable as per the A10.51 italicized EXC). It seems to me there is only one possible route path which costs 5MF; there is no other possible way to circumvent the route path since any other combination of route-movement would result in the unit being unable to reach its destination (>6MF cost).

I agree with the posters that this is a case of surrender, since the DM leader is both ADJACENT and unable to route away without being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl as per A20.21. Unless, of course, no quarter was in effect in which case the leader would have to risk interdiction or do the Low Crawl.

 

[griffitz62]

When figuring out the Rout you need to ask a few questions like this:
1) What is the nearest Bldg. or Woods hex in MF?
M1.
2) Can that hex be reached by using 6 or less MF?
Yes.
3) Which hex(s) can you move into first?
J3 and K5 are are not ok (adjacent to the enemy).
L3 and L4 are not ok (moving there would not allow you to reach M1 with 6 MF or less).
K3 is the only hex you can move to first. Since you are starting Adjacent to the enemy, and moving to K3 will result in your Interdiction, unless you use Low Crawl, then you surrender.

As a side note let's say that the 4-6-8 can't Interdict (he's CX, for example) then you would move to K3, and then you could go to K2 or L2 (your choice) since either way will still let you reach M1 in 6 MF or less.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I see my hesitations are not only mine...
The two problems (or points of the rule) that are presented here are :
- Low Crawl may happen elsewhere than in Open Ground
- If there exists a building or woods within 6 MF (and the unit does not need to move towards a Known Enemy Unit, neither ADJACENT to one), the unit is under the obligation to reach it (EXC Low Crawl)... And this may incurr Interdiction.

Here are the rule points that lead me to believe the leader must surrender :
A 10.52 Low Crawl : Low Crawl is a rout of one Location which requires the entire MF allotment of the routing unit (but is still considered a form of Assault Movement should the routing unit enter a FFE Blast Area). A routing unit using Low Crawl cannot be Interdicted. Low Crawl cannot be used to enter Marsh or a Water Obstacle, or in any stream unless dry. Low Crawl cannot be used to exit an enemy-occupied Location [EXC: Night (E1.54)]. All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF.
A 10.51 Direction : A routing unit may never rout toward a Known armed enemy unit (even if that enemy unit is broken or disrupted), while in that enemy unit's LOS, in any way which decreases the range in hexes between the routing unit and the Known armed enemy unit [EXC: Passengers, D6.1]; nor may it move toward such an enemy unit after leaving its LOS during that RtPh; nor, if ADJACENT to a Known armed enemy unit, may it rout into another hex ADJACENT to that same enemy unit. A routing unit may never move ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit, unless in doing so it is leaving that enemy unit's Location. Otherwise, a routing unit may move toward an enemy unit.
Assuming it can abide by the previous requirements, a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF calculated at the start of its RtPh) building or woods hex (even if overstacked) unless that route is through/into a known minefield or FFE, or is not traversable (e.g., through a Blaze, unbridged Water Obstacle, Cliff, etc.). As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route, but as long as it follows the shortest path in MF otherwise, it may enter a shellhole/entrenchment/pillbox to avoid Interdiction even if it can no longer reach that woods/building hex in a single RtPh. A routing unit can rout into/out of/within a known minefield or FFE at its option, but is not forced to do so merely to reach the closest woods/building hex. At the start of its RtPh, a routing unit must designate its destination and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh [EXC: if using Low Crawl]. If a newly-Known enemy unit prevents this, a new destination is re-figured from that point.
A 20.21 RtPh : Any broken Infantry unit during its RtPh that is both ADJACENT to Known, Good Order, armed enemy Infantry/Cavalry and unable to rout away from it or only able to rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl (regardless of how it actually routs or if the possible Interdictor is Known to it), will surrender to that enemy unit as its prisoner instead ...

 

[skye88]

NRBH: But my first impression was that he could low crawl away because it would not be into open ground (but into brush)

The whole "where may the unit low crawl" issue is not relevant here me thinks.

Unit is broken -> unit is adjacent to other unit -> only hexes where it can go to involve low crawl or interdiction -> thus units surrenders.

 

[Larry]

So what happens in this situation? The path would be L3, M3, but cannot reach the building in M1. Is he forced to move into M2 and suffer interdiction, or does that cause the surrender, too?

 

[Robin Reeve]

So what happens in this situation? The path would be L3, M3, but cannot reach the building in M1. Is he forced to move into M2 and suffer interdiction, or does that cause the surrender, too?

M1 is still at 6MF distance and the unit MUST try to reach it.
The only way would be with interdiction in M2, so its only alternatives are : suffer Interdiction or Low Crawl.
The CX 548 is OK to accept a prisonner, so there is surrender...
Note that, if there were a foxhole in M2 (and K3 in my example) the unit can spend MFs to enter and exit it so as not to be Interdicted, and thus not reach M1 in 6MF, and still be allowed to do it without surrendering...
I sometimes place setup foxholes to allow such rout possibilites...

 

[zgrose]

I asked this to Perry based on your earlier comment

> Rule:A20.21
> Question:When determining whether a broken unit would surrender to an ADJACENT
> unit, is the entire rout path examined for Interdiction or simply the first hex
> away from the enemy unit to which it is ADJACENT? That is, the first hex may be
> non-Open Ground but the second or third hex on the path to the target
> woods/building is Open Ground and therefore the unit would be Interdicted at
> that point during the rout.
>


The entire rout path.


....Perry


MMP

 

[Robin Reeve]

I asked this to Perry based on your earlier comment

Now that creates a difficulty : a unit may move towards an KEU as long as it does not see it and must adapt as soon as it sees it (or has seen it at a previous part of its RtPh)... but if the Interdiction it could suffer comes from units it does not yet see at the beginning of its RtPh (but will see after having moved a bit, of course), it must take it in consideration from the start of its rout movement...
These rout rules remain something confusing... :crosseye:

 

[alanp]

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at with this? It seems to me there is only one possible route path which costs 5MF; there is no other possible way to circumvent the route path since any other combination of route-movement would result in the unit being unable to reach its destination (>6MF cost).

I agree with the posters that this is a case of surrender, since the DM leader is both ADJACENT and unable to route away without being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl as per A20.21.

sorry for any confusion, Cpl. Kindel! I was responding directly and only to Larry's immediately preceding post; I should have 'quoted' him, I guess. Was merely trying to give Larry a rules citation to confirm that he now understands the error of his earlier ways. . .

There is no question that in the example given at the beginning of this post that the leader surrenders via the RtPh method.

 

[McFinn]

Good example Larry & Robin,

This post has been edited because I missed several important facts on Larry's example. Such as the fact the leader is on Level 2 (I originaly thought level 1). I did not want to cause confusion or mislead anyone :hush:

First off my revised answer to Larry's example:

The leader does not have to surrender for 2 reasons:

The building in the example is not any farther away in hexes from the enemy (in J1) than the leaders current hex. Thus is can be ignored as a rout destination. (see the EXC section of A 10.51)

With no legal rout destination (building or woods) in the example, the leader may rout anywhere as long as it does not violate other rout rules, (not adjacent, not closer to KEU, FREX) (see last paragraph of A 10.51 ) Thus the leader could stop in the brush of M3 or N3 if it wanted.



Below is my original post WHICH IS WRONG based my mistaken level 1 assumption. I leave it for those who wish to poke fun at my less than perfect powers of perception.


Regarding Larry's example:

In veiw of Perry's answer (and a careful rereading of the rules) I guess the leader surrenders. I learned something new.

(the following is an opinion and not how the rules work)
I agree with Robin that IMHO it makes more sense to me (in a time flow sort of way) that the leader would Rout to K3 (no interdiction, CX or HA), now not being adjacent to KEU (no longer subject to 20.21) it could continue to rout to L2, M2 (suffering interdiction) and then M1.

My basis for this was reading to much into the latter part of A 10.51 direction. "If a newly known enemy unit prevents this, a new destination if figured from that point." A took this to mean a routing unit could only react to inderdiction possobilities of KEU (or formerly KEU) during its rout phase.

I can easliy visualize the offical version. A broken, scared leader/unit sees the enemy squad near by and just down the hill to their flank/rear (out of sight) they hear gun fire/enemy units thus with their retreat cut off they give up.