76mm Shermans in CM:N?

[Michael Dorosh]

View attachment 32063

According to Zaloga's US ARMORED DIVISIONS: ETO 1944-45, 76mm Shermans didn't see use in U.S. tank battalions until 24 July 1944 (D+49). The first type was the M4A1(76)W - which had the cast hull. The Sherman in the screenshot is an M4A3(76)W, with the welded hull, which was introduced after the M4A1(76)W IIRC.

Technically, the Normandy fighting was over on 25 July 1944, when Operation COBRA began - this is what the U.S. Army histories refer to as the "breakout". The British and Canadian official histories consider the Battle of Normandy to consist of the period from 6 June 1944 (the NEPTUNE assault) to the reaching of the Seine (1 September 1944).

I guess what matters is what BFC considers "Normandy". :laugh:

Technically, according to the history that the U.S. Army produced, Cross Channel Assault, there are three regions in the region that was fought over in the first few weeks; Bessin, Bocage, and Caen; Bessin in the area of the American beaches, Caen to the east, and the Bocage south of Bessin.

The "breakout" fighting still took place in Normandy proper, so it would not be incorrect to consider the fighting the Americans did after 25 July 1944 - particularly that done to close the Falaise Gap - as being in Normandy, though the 3d Army did pass into Brittany in short order, going the other way.

Normandy is divided into Upper (Haute) Normandy and Lower (Basse) Normandy. It was Lower Normandy that the Allies landed in; Upper Normandy was north and east. The region actually extends quite far inland.

View attachment 32064

I guess the point is that if BFC sticks to the strictest definition of "Battle of Normandy", there will be a very harsh disparity when it comes to armour, as the only tank types in use by the U.S. Army were 75mm M4 and M4A1s. The 76s were in England as early as April 1944 but never made it to the continent until COBRA. The Jumbos (M4A3E2) did not arrive until well after Normandy - October - and the other goodies like E8 HVSS etc. also did not arrive until afterwards.

I note after a surf through the editor of both CM:BO and CM:AK that the rarity factor/availability of 76mm tank types was a little generous and in some cases back dated advantageously for the U.S. - ahistorically so.

I wonder if this will be the case again, in order to provide "balance."

According to Zaloga, who does a division by division survey of 76 vs 75 mm armed Shermans, not a single 76mm Sherman was on inventory in any of the armored divisions in the ETO in June 1944, and by 1 Aug 1944, just 95 were on inventory with the 2d and 3d Armored Divisions, or 10.2 percent. This is for the armored divisions only, and not the independent tank battalions which operated in support of the infantry divisions.

 

[dalem]

According to Zaloga, who does a division by division survey of 76 vs 75 mm armed Shermans, not a single 76mm Sherman was on inventory in any of the armored divisions in the ETO in June 1944, and by 1 Aug 1944, just 95 were on inventory with the 2d and 3d Armored Divisions, or 10.2 percent. This is for the armored divisions only, and not the independent tank battalions which operated in support of the infantry divisions.

Totally off the top of my head late at night, but didn't the76mm Shermans go to the armored divisions first?

-dale

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Totally off the top of my head late at night, but didn't the76mm Shermans go to the armored divisions first?

-dale

I'm not sure; it sounds reasonable.

I do know for sure that the Jumbos went to the independent battalions first, because they figured that doctrinally, the battalions supporting the infantry divisions had more use for "assault tanks." Then the weather got muddy, and the armored spearheads started advancing on frontages as wide as a single road, since the mud kept them road-bound. That's when the armored division commanders decided maybe they needed 'assault tanks' after all. There was a movement to rearm the M4A3E2s in theater IIRC with the 76.

 

[thewood]

Well, looking at Steve's view of rigid reality and doctrine. Some sides get the rigid treatment and some sides don't. It would be interesting to see reaction to the US being on the downside of the balance issue.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Yes, exactly. I'm curious which time frame we will be seeing for this module, and what their definition of "Normandy" is. Also which unit we shall see in the campaign. The independent tank battalions tended to go to specific divisions for lengthy periods of time, but having an armored division would make sense too. I think we speculated in another thread about the 2d Armored only because they had one of the few units that issued camouflage uniforms to their GIs. :laugh: And we know Steve is a camouflage collector. They also fought well-chronicled battles against German armour, so they would seem to be a natural.

As a point of trivia, they also never reorganized their medium tank units into battalions, instead keeping a "regiment" of Shermans.

 

[Elvis]

I am using my dead sexy Droid to surf the intertubes this morning but unfortunately haven't figured out copy/paste yet.

I was pretty sure it had been publicly discussed before but didn't want to chime in until I looked up the dates that the Normandy game would cover that had already been announced. I just did a quick search and in post #40 Steve states that it will run through September '44. The Buldge family will pick up in October '44. The thread is called CM:N oob and TOandE or something like that.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So we should probably just believe them when they say "CM: Normandy" won't really be the title, then. :laugh:

 

[Elvis]

So we should probably just believe them when they say "CM: Normandy" won't really be the title, then. :laugh:

I would.

 

[junk2drive]

The name will be like "Just France" and the bulge one "Kinda France and some countries you can't spell"

 

[British Tommy]

The name will be like "Just France" and the bulge one "Kinda France and some countries you can't spell"

LMAO!!!! nice one J2D

 

[dalem]

As a point of trivia, they also never reorganized their medium tank units into battalions, instead keeping a "regiment" of Shermans.

Not strictly accurate, in that the mediums were always organized into battalions, but that the 2nd and 3rd Armored merely kept more of them. The original "heavy" armored division layout was 2 regiments of 3 battalions each of Shermans +1 battalion of Stuarts, 1 regiment of 3 battalions of armored infantry, and 3 battalions of M7 Priests. A battalion of tank destroyers (always self propelled for the armored divisions, never towed), a battalion of SP AAA, and a mechanized recon battalion rounded out the shooter components.

The mid-war re-org basically stripped a regiment of Shermans away, leaving a nice ratio of 3 x 3 x 3 (tank, armored infantry, and SPA battalions, respectively) that allowed for faster deployment and movement with a standard combat command consisting of 1 battalion each of armor, armored infantry, and SPA. The Stuarts were pretty much permanently portioned out by company at this time, one to each medium tank battalion. Most everyone preferred the later, lighter divisions - everyone except Belton "Death Traps" Cooper, it seems.

-dale

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Not strictly accurate, in that the mediums were always organized into battalions, but that the 2nd and 3rd Armored merely kept more of them. The original "heavy" armored division layout was 2 regiments of 3 battalions each of Shermans +1 battalion of Stuarts, 1 regiment of 3 battalions of armored infantry, and 3 battalions of M7 Priests. A battalion of tank destroyers (always self propelled for the armored divisions, never towed), a battalion of SP AAA, and a mechanized infantry batallion rounded out the shooter components.

The mid-war re-org basically stripped a regiment of Shermans away, leaving a nice ratio of 3 x 3 x 3 (tank, armored infantry, and SPA battalions, respectively) that allowed for faster deployment and movement with a standard combat command consisting of 1 battalion each of armor, armored infantry, and SPA. The Stuarts were pretty much permanently portioned out by company at this time, one to each medium tank battalion. Most everyone preferred the later, lighter divisions - everyone except Belton "Death Traps" Cooper, it seems.

-dale

EDIT - yes, you are correct; the battalions were retained, but in a regimental structure.

Interesting to me is the fact that the battalions had their own indirect fire support, in the form of both 81-mm mortars (in halftracks) and 105mm Shermans (though M7 Priests were used where equipment was in short supply).

I think most wargamers tend to use the 105 Sherman as an "assault gun", for direct fire, which I now wonder about the historical accuracy of.

 

[dalem]

EDIT - yes, you are correct; the battalions were retained, but in a regimental structure.

Interesting to me is the fact that the battalions had their own indirect fire support, in the form of both 81-mm mortars (in halftracks) and 105mm Shermans (though M7 Priests were used where equipment was in short supply).

I think most wargamers tend to use the 105 Sherman as an "assault gun", for direct fire, which I now wonder about the historical accuracy of.

Yeah, the HQ company had the 81mm halftracks and the SPG platoon. I'm pretty sure that, although certainly capable of indirect fire, the 105 SPGs were indeed used as assault guns, although we gamers do probably over-represent that. The QB AI "picker" does too, because pretty much every time one side gets a bunker the assaulting side gets an SPG of some type.

Bottom line is that the U.S. armored divisions had ridiculous amounts of mobile firepower. I think we've all read the accounts of the armored infantry's towed AT guns being strewn along roadways out of deployment because they needed the gunners as riflemen and felt the towed 57mm/6 pdr was redundant given the amount of Shermans available, plus the fact that each HT had a bazooka.

One thing I've still never been able to get a handle on in all my casual or deep reading on the subject over the years, is the actual use of the MGs in the armored infantry. I don't have anything that really describes the doctrinal or the field employment of either the standard MGs on the M3/M3A1 HTs in the armored infantry platoons, or the "heavy" MG halftracks that were attached to the companies as their HMG platoon. Were the .30cals always dismounted? Never? Sometimes? I presume no one would ever dismount the .50cals, of course. Without a TO&Ed BAR, and with a slightly smaller squad in the first place, the armored infantry actually had less inherent FP than an regular infantry squad. Bringing along the .30 cals from the HTs would have certainly helped.

I'm waiting for Harry Yeide to come to my rescue, I guess.

-dale

 

[jwb3]

Interesting to me is the fact that the battalions had their own indirect fire support, in the form of both 81-mm mortars (in halftracks) and 105mm Shermans (though M7 Priests were used where equipment was in short supply).

I think most wargamers tend to use the 105 Sherman as an "assault gun", for direct fire, which I now wonder about the historical accuracy of.

Can't offer you proof, but I see no need to wonder. ASL's vehicle notes list the trio of these Shermans in the battalion HQ as the "assault gun platoon", and it was certainly designed to be useable in a direct-fire role... much more so than the M10 Tank Destroyer with its open-topped turret!

It always surprises me to see the Priest used as an assault gun, but never the 105mm Sherman.

Indeed, I would be more surprised to learn that the 105mm Sherman was capable of effective indirect fire, if I hadn't already learned that the M10 was often used in this role in Italy. I figure if a purpose-designed TD can do it, just about anything can.


John

 

[junk2drive]

Americans are good at finding uses for things for which they were never designed.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Americans are good at finding uses for things for which they were never designed.

Like turning anti-beach obstacles into plows.

 

[Geordie]

Technically, the Normandy fighting was over on 25 July 1944,

Ive always worked on 01 Sep 44 being the end of Normandy and the beginning of the rest. Yes Cobra started it, but Ive always been led to believe that Falaise ended it. There was still a lot of fighting in Normandy after 25 Jul, but not that much after 01 Sep.

So I suppose the Sherman 76 will be considered as a Normandy tank. It is included in the game anyway and so it will be fun to match it up to the Tigers. Until the British module arrives, the 76 will be the best allied Sherman.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Ive always worked on 01 Sep 44 being the end of Normandy and the beginning of the rest.

Which is what I indicated in the very next sentence.

The British and Canadian official histories consider the Battle of Normandy to consist of the period from 6 June 1944 (the NEPTUNE assault) to the reaching of the Seine (1 September 1944).

I also indicate further along in the post

what matters is what BFC considers "Normandy".

FWIW, I can understand why the U.S. official historian(s) ended "Normandy" at July 25 - the U.S. Army then went directly into a "Breakout and Pursuit" phase which the British obviously did not, still slugging south towards Falaise. U.S. 3d Army activated on 1 August and the Americans ended up going in several directions at once; Brittany, Paris, and closing the Gap with the British.

 

[Mad Russian]

The name will be like "Just France" and the bulge one "Kinda France and some countries you can't spell"

Thank God the German's didn't invade England. That would produce an entire set of east and west of the canal.

I guess the one for England could be called "Panzers in Piccadilly".

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Thank God the German's didn't invade England. That would produce an entire set of east and west of the canal.

I guess the one for England could be called "Panzers in Piccadilly".

Good Hunting.

MR

MMP is actually contemplating an Operation Sea Lion module for ASL; last I heard Ian Daglish was working on it. Would be a departure (for them) in being a hypothetical. Of course, there was a whole "Sea Lion mod" for CM:AK at one point, or at least, in the planning stages with some mods and missions done.