7,5cm Pak 97/38 counter: german ordnance 17 note 9

[tailesin]

I have always been uncomfortable with the counter representation of the german 7,5cm Pak 97/38 (german ordnance note 9). and the performance of this gun in ASL terms.

First, and from my point of view, the most obvious error is that the counter is NOT a "low target" one. This gun was just a bit higher than the 5,0 cm pak 38 and lower than the 7,5cm pak 40. In the game, both are low targets.
You can easily compare sizes in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_Pak_97/38

Second point is about it's performance as an anti tank gun. It was an improvisation made to be able to figth aganist the russian T-34's and the KV-1's which the 37mm and 50mm AT guns had proved unable to penetrate. The Pak 97/38 was intended to use the HEAT round principle shoot from a relatively slow velocity gun to defeat the front of the T34 and side of KV1. So even though it existed an AP round of polish origin of reduced performance and great recoil and possibly in short numbers, the common round used to fight tanks was the HEAT one.
In our counter, the HEAT round is H5 !!!!! when it should be the antitank round by defect so no limitations. It's the AP round that should be AP5 if necessary.

The "To kill table" is also baffling: german 50L basic to kill is 13. german 75 basic to kill is 14 and the german 75H is just 13. So in ASL terms why would the germans ever use its resources to create the 7,5cm Pak 97/38

HEAT round were not perfect and german gunners admited that more rounds were necessary to stop enemy tanks than for example with the Pak 40 75L. Mostly because low velocity made hitting more difficult. But they killed enemy tanks.

7.5 cm Gr.38/97Hl/B HEAT round wold be more like 15
7.5 cm Gr.38/97Hl/C HEAT round would be more like 17

7,5cm Pak 97/38 were given also to Italian, Romanian and Hungarian units in late 1942 along the Don front to improve their AT capabilities (one batterie for division). They used mostly 37mm and 47mm guns. There were too few to change anything.

By the way, the 75* guns from the Panzer IVF1, Panzer IIIN, Stug IIIE, 251/9...etc should also be more effective as AT guns with HEAT rounds.

 

[robh91]

There was a very long thread a few months ago in this very topic.

 

[jrv]

This isn't a rules question, right?

Wikipedia: "The HEAT projectiles penetrated about 90 mm at an impact angle of 90° or about 75 mm at 60°." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_Pak_97/38

The American M3 Gun from the Sherman using AP: 99 mm at impact angle of 90° at range 250m. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/75_mm_Gun_M2/M3/M6

That sounds a bit like TK# 13 & 14 respectively would be not unreasonable.

JR

 

[Jazz]

Is there a rules question here? Or is this merely an opinion piece about how the design of ASL does not live to someone's expectation? I didn't think so.....

Off to WWII History, Weapons, and Tactics......which is not nearly as bad as going to Chit-Chat....

 

[tailesin]

Well, of course, it's not a Rules question. It's just to point two clear errors related to the specific counter of the 7,5cm pak 97/38.

That the 7,5cm Pak 97/38 is a small target is NOT a question of personal opinion. It's a fact that this gun should be represented with the white dot on the Mx. It was as small as the german 50L or the 75L.

Also is a fact that this gun was created with the purpose to fire HEAT rounds aganist the Russian tanks that the 37L and 50L were not able to defeat. So it is NOT correct to have a depletion number for the Heat round because it was its main ammunition.

The HEAT to kill is not as easy to solve because germans used some different rounds HL/A, HL/B and HL/C. Mostly the B's and C's. These rounds worked different from the normal kinnetic effect ones so they are not exactly comparable. Germans were pretty satisfied with them and so, they provided most of their guns that were able to fire one with them, (even the 75L) and used Heat to good effect. To the point of rearming the old Pz III with the 75* (7,5 kwk L24 on the Pz IIIN ) because it was not only better at killing enemies with HE but also better at killing enemy tanks (even though using more rounds): troops at the field gave "extraordinarily positive reports" about the Pz IIIN (panzer tracts 3-3).

So "sure" the "to kill" must be at least 14 for HL/B and 16 to HL/C... If you can destroy an enemy tank with an AP round (a 75mm gun like that would be "to kill" of 14 ) you don't waste your time creating an innefective HEAT round for it (just to get a "to kill" of 13).

By the way I cannot find that long discussion about this issues.

Thanks

 

[jrv]

I'm guessing this: http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/75-ap-and-heat.128353/

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If you want changes - then write up a mail to MMP. Though I think the chances of this changing are rather low.

 

[jrv]

According to this page the alternatives to the 7.5 cm PaK 97/38 were as follows:

Gun - Penetration 100 m - Penetration 500 m
3,7 cm Pak - 34 mm - 29 mm
5 cm Pak 38 - 69 mm - 59 mm

The penetration of the 7.5cm HL/B HEAT round was 75mm and the HL/C HEAT round was 90mm. These are better than the alternatives. But as I have cited above, the penetration of the American M3 75 L40 was around 99mm, and the German 7.5 cm PaK 40 was around 120 mm at 500m (http://www.panzerworld.com/7-5-cm-pak-40). It looks like the ordering should be 7.5cm HEAT < American M3 75mm L40 < German 7.5 cm PaK 40. I don't know how penetration results are translated into ASL TK#s, but at least the relative ordering seems correct.

JR

 

[Jazz]

Well, of course, it's not a Rules question.

Well, then why pray tell did you post it to the Rules sub-forum?

 

[Paul M. Weir]

The ASL TK numbers were based upon penetration at 500m in cm + 5. Due to the semi exponential nature of the ASL armour AF steps, guns much above 57mm or TK ~12+ get a boost in TK.

Quite frankly I would doubt 75mm M3 penetration figures of 99mm. Many tables for penetration for guns were compiled by live testing at sample target plates usually at 30° from the vertical. Post war many authors and wargamers used these figures and "normalised" them (divided by Cos(30°) or equivalently multiply by 1.155) to get the penetration at 0°. The Wiki table values look like the have been double normalised as the figures I have seen previously indicate about 70-80mm at 500 m/yards. The preceding Wiki text gives the M61 shell 84mm at 0° at 500m while the table gives 95mm. The M3 had a muzzle velocity of only about 2000 ft/s and had great difficulty penetrating a Tiger I side/rear armour of 80mm, which a 95mm penetration would not have had. Incidentally the Soviet F-34/ZiS-3 (76L) should have the same TK as the US 75 as though the Soviet figures are a few mm lower than the US 75, the Soviets worked on an 80% penetration as opposed to US/British 50%.

The impetus for the HL/? series was to give decent penetration to guns like the 75* and 105. The 75* only had about 40-50mm penetration at 500m so 75mm was a vast improvement. The PaK 97/38's AP rounds were Polish or French and not only old but of older designs, so I feel would not be up to the US 75 in penetration.

I would be inclined to treat the Finnish PaK 97/38 notes (B12 for HEAT) as applying to the German version and use TK 13 for the AP and 14 (or 15) for the HEAT.

Note that that's more appropriate for the HL/C rather than the HL/A or HL/B, but that is a problem with all ASL guns as they appear to use the TK values for the most advanced variant within a particular type. Eg many AT guns went plain AP to APC (capped) to APCBC (capped ballistic cap), often gaining extra penetration, some times 20mm extra, though AP, APC, APCBC are all AP in ASL terms.

EDIT: Make the HEAT the default and AP the limited type, IE H∞ and AP9 would be my choice and ditto for the Finnish and Axis Minor guns.