7.5cm IeIG 18 & 76.2mm PP obr. 27 in Chinese use

jrv

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Do they have gunshields?
Not by rule. Per the ordnance note the Chinese "used them primarily in the field artillery role." If you think of a gun as artillery, you don't set it up and man as a close, direct fire weapon. As some had it, "The moral is to the physical as three to one."

JR
 
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Paul M. Weir

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I have to agree with jrv's choice of reason. The lower calibre/weight INF guns were intended by their originators to be pushed forward to be on or very close behind the front line when attacking. They were intended to be used very often in a direct fire use. Once an objective was taken and stabilised the INF could be rolled up onto that objective. Think of them as pin point versions of infantry medium MTR. They could be risked a bit as the Germans and to a somewhat lesser extent the Soviets still had a decent amount to field artillery for the indirect/barrage work to back them up.

The Chinese on the other hand were lucky at times to have medium MTR, never mind much artillery, so every tube was precious and not to be risked. They were the field artillery.
 

Vinnie

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Oh, there is no doubt about the use, it's just these are the same guns!
Mind you, a 25pounder has no gunshield while the 37mm AT gun does
 

R Hooks

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"Big Bertha's" from WW1 had gun shields, I don't think they would ever be confused with Infantry guns. Even if it's the same gun, Use should play a roll. Notice also the Chinese 75* is horse drawn, I would bet that most were also H-D in German service, at least in infantry divisions.
 

Swiftandsure

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"Big Bertha's" from WW1 had gun shields, I don't think they would ever be confused with Infantry guns. Even if it's the same gun, Use should play a roll. Notice also the Chinese 75* is horse drawn, I would bet that most were also H-D in German service, at least in infantry divisions.
See chapter C footnote 29:
GUNSHIELDS: While many ART and AA Guns also had gunshields, their crews were too large and their ammunition too bulky for their gunshields to have a consistent effect in game terms.
The problem here is that the guns are the same, requiring the same crew size and the same ammo storage volume.
I don't think that any reality argument can be invoked to explain the difference.
The only reason is that an ART gun in ASL doesn't have a gunshield, whatever the level of frustration that type of streamlining generates.
 

Yuri0352

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Oh, there is no doubt about the use, it's just these are the same guns!
Mind you, a 25pounder has no gunshield while the 37mm AT gun does
Every photo of a 25 pounder which I have ever seen indicates that this weapon was manufactured with a gunshield.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Every photo of a 25 pounder which I have ever seen indicates that this weapon was manufactured with a gunshield.
Maybe it falls under Chapter C Footnote 29?

29. 11.5 GUNSHIELDS: While many ART and AA Guns also had gunshields, their crews were too large and their ammunition too bulky for their gunshields to have a consistent effect in game terms.
 

jrv

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Note that gunshields are usable only by crews [C11.5]. The fact that the gun physically has a gunshield installed is not enough for ASL to grant the gunshield DRM. One not only has to be installed; the users also have to be trained or inclined to use it. The designers apparently felt that the Chinese were not trained/inclined to use the gunshield on these guns. As I said, "The morale to the physical is as three to one."

JR
 

Vinnie

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Although it would have been horse drawn.
Maybe it falls under Chapter C Footnote 29?

29. 11.5 GUNSHIELDS: While many ART and AA Guns also had gunshields, their crews were too large and their ammunition too bulky for their gunshields to have a consistent effect in game terms.
While I agree, look at the 25pounder versus the 37mm example, these two weapons are INF guns for most other nationalities which use them.
 

klasmalmstrom

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While I agree, look at the 25pounder versus the 37mm example, these two weapons are INF guns for most other nationalities which use them.
What other nationalities in ASL uses the 25-pounder besides the British?
 

von Marwitz

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I mean the 75 INF gun is an INF gun for the Germans and axis minor but an ART for the Chinese. It's just odd.
Well, as has been pointed out before with reference to the footnote:
This is probably to mean that the Chinese crews were more inept to use these INF Guns than Germans/Russians. Probably due to less thorough training, whatever. Thus they are easier to take out in combat which is represented in the game by the mechanism of "denying" them the benefits of the Gunshield fixed to those guns.

When first looking at the pictures of the counters you have presented, I thought: Yes, he is right! But looking at the footnote, I can understand and am satisfied with the reasoning behind it.

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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This is probably to mean that the Chinese crews were more inept to use these INF Guns than Germans/Russians. Probably due to less thorough training, whatever.
I don't think it means they were inept. I think it means they thought of the guns differently, and therefore set them up, manned and serviced them differently. If someone took an AT-gun and, say, mounted it on a ramp to use for indirect fire, you might not give that crew the benefit of the gunshield either.

JR
 

hongkongwargamer

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Guns were over treasured in the Chinese army, always pulled far from the front line and severely underused, especially in light of the fact that the IJA controlled the skies.

Naturally the Generalissimo wouldn’t allow any used in a direct fire manner.
 
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