5-4-7 Volksgrenadier Squad

Robin Reeve

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Aw man, you have both? I only have the Sgt Rock one!:(
Sgt Rock ?
I heard of Sgt Paper's Lonely Hearts Band.
Does a Sgt Scissors exist too ?

On topic : I think we have quite enough different German MMCs.
What about rather having more Brits? I mean the 648-458-457-447-436 cover about all the types of troops, whether from the British Isles, Canada, Africa, India, etc.
And the 436 "Home Guard" guys are nearly never depicted in an initial OB (and I don't recall seeing many appear by Unit Substitution anyway).
 

Paul M. Weir

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The normal British squads, though varying in number of men (8-12) throughout the war did not much change in terms of weapons. The standard was 1 LMG (Bren), usually 1 SMG and the rest rifles. Some like paratroopers and commandos might have up to half the rifles replaced with SMG, giving the 648 , but the core weapon was the single Bren. There is not the same scope for different squad types that the USMC, German and Soviet armies displayed.

The one army that should have more squad types is the Soviet army.

The Soviet army started and ended the war with 1 LMG per squad. In the winter of '41-'42 they dropped to 3 then 2 LMG per 4 squads (platoon). By mid '42 they were back to 4 LMG per platoon and in '43 had gone to 6 per platoon (2 squads w 1 LMG, 2 w 2 LMG). In '44 the platoon had gone to a 3 squad organisation with 3 LMG per platoon. Whilst the 527 and 628 squads represent the squads in the regimental SMG company (2 such companies in Guards units), such SMG squads had no LMG. Starting mid '44 a process started where 1 platoon in each rifle company was converted to a SMG platoon and these would have retained their LMG.

Whilst the heavy infantry squad (2 LMG per squad) and converted rifle to SMG squads can be covered by adding 1 LMG per 2 such squad (IE 1 FP per squad), the LMG-less squad of '41-'42 requires a 3-4-8, 3-4-7, 3-2-6 squad type.

There is also the question of whether there should be a 2nd line squad (4-3-7 rifle, 4-2-7 SMG) to reflect the greater resilience of the mid '43+ Soviet infantry. Greater ERL might or might not be sufficient to reflect this.

The full set might look like this:

Rifle:
3-4-8->3-4-7->3-2-7 = '41/'42 LMG less rifle squad with 1, later 2 per 4 squad platoon. Lack of LMG means no extra range for elite.
4-5-8->4-4-7->4-2-6 = Normal rifle squad, 1 LMG.
5-5-8->5-4-7->4-2-6 = "Heavy" rifle squad, 2 LMG in '43, 2 per 4 squad platoon. Extra LMG gives spraying fire.
The 5-5-8 squad would be a good representation of the Soviet Naval infantry, who, judging from photographs, had a large number of semi-automatic rifles. It is probable that due to their better education, training and familiarity with things mechanical that they were judged to be better able to maintain the more complex SVT-38/40 rifles (~ 1.6M produced).

SMG:
6-2-8->5-2-7-4-2-6 = Original SMG squad with 10 men all armed with SMG, no LMG.
7-3-8->6-3-7->4-2-6 = Rifle squads converted to SMG, 1 LMG. The LMG gives extra range.

Most other armies stuck with 1 LMG per squad (at least as long as they lasted), though as the war went on SMG became a bit more common with the Axis Minors. The one army I have big questions about are the Free French. They received a lot of US equipment. I would have imagined that should have had some effect on their squad values, but it is a subject on which I admit complete ignorance. If someone has FF squad weapon breakdowns, I would love to see those. There might well be two scales of equipment, depending upon the origins and history of the units.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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The normal British squads, though varying in number of men (8-12) throughout the war did not much change in terms of weapons. The standard was 1 LMG (Bren), usually 1 SMG and the rest rifles. Some like paratroopers and commandos might have up to half the rifles replaced with SMG, giving the 648 , but the core weapon was the single Bren. There is not the same scope for different squad types that the USMC, German and Soviet armies displayed.
Agree. As a matter of interest I note that for special cases, infantry units were actually over-establishment on SMGs as a matter of course. This was definitely the case in 1st Canadian Army, not positive about the British. But Canadian infantry battalions had a "pool" of extra Sten guns from which officers and riflemen could draw on after D-Day. I do doubt that this changed the composition of the rifle sections (squads) in open battle much, though perhaps for fighting in built-up areas this may have been noticeable. The surplus was not sizeable, and the weapons were not popular.

Also noteworthy was the Commonwealth forces were going through the same problems as the Germans; while draft age did not dip, replacements were coming from "other arms" and it was noted that fieldcraft was poor and morale terrible as Normandy dragged on, and for the remainder of 1944 until the winter stalemate and the chance to catch their breath. As I suggested with regards to the Germans - this meant fewer men firing weapons - but of course, the British Commonwealth forces used an LOB system which meant that the 10-man section never went into action at full strength, and there is documented evidence that on average, the 10-man "squads" were really going into battle with about 5 men per squad. The firepower was contributed by the LMG, as you note.

Which makes any argument in which one dithers over a "4" or a "5" even more irrelevant, given the baffling relationship of a British squad's firepower factor in ASL, and the reality of how many men were firing weapons, and which kinds. Battlefield questionnaires made it clear that while on paper it was 8 rifles, an SMG and an LMG, in reality it was an LMG, perhaps 3 Lee Enfields, and a harried "Squad Leader" with a Sten.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Which makes any argument in which one dithers over a "4" or a "5" even more irrelevant, given the baffling relationship of a British squad's firepower factor in ASL, and the reality of how many men were firing weapons, and which kinds. Battlefield questionnaires made it clear that while on paper it was 8 rifles, an SMG and an LMG, in reality it was an LMG, perhaps 3 Lee Enfields, and a harried "Squad Leader" with a Sten.
I agree with the spirit of this, if not the conclusion. All armies will suffer from less than much less than possible FP generated. Whether this is due to the British LOB, lack of sufficient rifle training or simple, natural terror, the effect is the same. Most studies, that I have heard of, suggest that less than half contribute meaningfully in a firefight.

When trying to to put a value on a squad (and ASL is all about numbers), I figure the rifle part to be about 3 (maybe 4 for semi-auto rifles) on the basis that the target unit knows they are faced by more than one or two men and a fair number of them are firing at them. IE mainly a morale effect, with some chance of casualties (2 or 3 such 3 FP squads are far more deadly, quantity has a quality of its own). The addition of a LMG to a squad, usually manned by the better squadies, brings the squad up to a FP column with a bit more breaking power (reflecting more single casualties).

The addition of a second LMG (again manned by the better troopers) should have some effect on the effective FP of a squad. Ditto the replacement of a large percentage of rifles with semi-auto rifles or SMG. If you start with a 10 man squad with SMG, LMG and 8 rifles/carbines and only 50% fire you will probably find the ones that are firing are the SMG (SL), LMG and 2 rifles (the LMG loader will not be firing). If you replace a rifle with a LMG you will then most likely get SMG, 2 LMG firing. That is still an increase in FP. All this is assuming the usual practise in allocating the better and more reliable soldiers to any LMG. There will still be some target morale effect due to the (believed) presence of the rest of the squad even if their fire is sporadic and ineffective. The infantry part of ASL is mainly about morale with kills taking second place.

The part of ASL FP that we can quantify is the weapon mix. This should form the basis of what counters we design and possibly use. The training, combat experience, percentage of full TO&E present. percentage of veterans and physical and mental exhaustion and health should be the things that help us decide what goes into a side's scenario counter mix and ERL.

If both sides are in a similar state of morale, strength and experience then similar mixes of elite, 1st and 2nd line troops should be used. If one side is mainly grandfathers, children and village idiots with a very few veterans then conscript troops with two or three squads of elite troops is appropriate.

If you are modelling late '44 VG troops then the mix should be something like 30% 547, 60% 447 and 10% 436, ERL 2. The performance of the VG in Wacht am Rhein was variable. Some divisions were as good as their predecessor infantry divisions, some were fairly worthless. For the better units, throw in some 548, maybe ERL 3. A scenario designer should aim to reflect units that were heavily armed with automatic weapons, often enthusiastic, often with a core of veterans but in general lacked sufficient training and brittle. Like a glass sliver can cut deep but breaks easily.

Any non-computer generated "shot by shot" simulation or game will not be able to produce some absolute FP and casualty generation. At best it can hope is to get some close approximation of relative FP. All different counter values do is supply the scenario or CG designer with a set of building blocks or tools. It is up to the designer to decide what mix of squads, SW, leaders and ERL should reflect his/her interpretation of an action and adjust as a result of playtesting.

Because ASL will at best reflect relative strengths, the absolute strengths are less important. It is thus valid to use full strength TO&E units as the building blocks in a scenario and adjust one sides mix, numbers, leaders, ERL and SW to reflect relative states of training, experience, morale, strength percentage and exhaustion.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Think about strength percentages and effective FP percentages, brought up a possible justification for the German 8-3-8 (and maybe the US 7-4-7). Neither correspond to any known TO&E (at least as far as I can figure out). Maybe if you consider those squads as being the only ones who can put all or nearly all their possible FP. :D

What I would find to 5-4-7 to have been most useful is for ERL reduction of early war 5-4-8 Fallschirmjäger or Assault Engineer. A 4 step reduction sequence seems more appropriate than 3 step for such elite troops.
 

jwb3

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Seems to me that since every nationality's patriots feel that their troops were actually better than ASL portrays them, the answer is simple: Just add one to the morale of every nationality.



:devious: John
 

Roadtogundagai

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Seems to me that since every nationality's patriots feel that their troops were actually better than ASL portrays them, the answer is simple: Just add one to the morale of every nationality.
:devious: John
The Finns have no reason to complain. They are represented as Ubermen with more powers than Captain America.
 

Robin Reeve

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TO&E is not the only reference to decide what FP and range values to give to an MMC.
838 or 747 reflect somehow the "gusto" that elite units can display.
 

Michael Dorosh

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TO&E is not the only reference to decide what FP and range values to give to an MMC.
838 or 747 reflect somehow the "gusto" that elite units can display.
Yes. Note above though that when it was mentioned that the VG squad should somehow reflect the fact that they were receiving almost no basic training and were fodder for underage and overage recruits by the time they were formed, the OP referred to that stance as "uneducated" and laughed it off.
 

wrongway149

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Yep, you got to know how to use them. Plus, there are 6-6-7s in the mix anyhow.
Sometimes the unit's values are what they are to encourage players to use them historically.

U.S paratroops had M-1 rifles- yet they were higly trained in close combat techniques and were not shy about it. A 7-4-7 encourages players to use them that way.
 

Paul M. Weir

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The ultimate worthiness of a 547 squad is its ability to generate flame wars! :blab:
 
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