5-4-7 Volksgrenadier Squad

Glennbo

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What we need are 3-7-6 squads.

These represent those guys who were really good long range marksmen, but they took a long time lining up their shots. And if they got shot back at then they just couldn't be bothered and left the field.
 

rwcallen

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What we need are 3-7-6 squads.

These represent those guys who were really good long range marksmen, but they took a long time lining up their shots. And if they got shot back at then they just couldn't be bothered and left the field.
Now it sounds like you're talking about my woefully inactive snipers...
 

chris_olden

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Then get your "Scenario design" cap on Chris and slash something out over the next few months.....
Well, there certainly are some actions that the
VGD's could be represented in. However, at this
point I'd use a mixture of 4-3-6/4-4-7/5-4-8 with
low ELR and a fair number of LMG's to make the
OB.
It would be fun to hammer that out!
(although I'm certain that the people who say
that "Guns for St.Barbara" is a three legged howler
would prefer that I keep any future designs
to myself...):laugh:
 
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Houlie

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I like the idea of the 5-4-7. The 5-4-8 seems too powerful for a VG squad. In addition to the MP-44s, the Germans also had some semi-auto rifles, (not too many though), and were still cranking out sub-machineguns in 44 and '45.
I do not believe the MP44 was very common at all and certainly not to VG divisions -- mostly elite formations. Compare the photographic evidence of a late-war German soldier holding an MP44 versus an MP40. Obviously, the MP40 was far and away more prevalent. It could be solidly argued that the generally poor class of the VG could account for a lower, existing firepower -- 4 vs. 5 and perhaps an inability to effectively spray fire. If the situation calls for it, SSR in assault fire to the scenario, though I doubt it is worth the effort for the negligible impact to the scenario.
 

chris_olden

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Has anyone else read "Victory was Beyond their Grasp"?
A VERY good history of a VGD in '44/'45.
 

wrongway149

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If they were classified as 1st line, then they would hardly be eligible to be called Volksgrenadiers.
Why not? Most 'Infanterie ' divisions were being called VG by Autumn 1944. Some, such as the 26th were composed of veteran landsers with good leadership, who were differentiated from PG divisions mainly by the shortage of motorized transport.

Others sucked-but so did certain Panzer or PG units.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Without starting a flame war, thank you for making my point, the 5-4-8 is too strong, a 5-4-7 with an ELR of 2 or 3 would better depict a half trained group with new toys....
I was under the impresseion the 5-4-8 was intended to portray German Fallschirmjäger, using the FG42, or perhaps late war panzergrenadier squads with 9 men and two MG42s/extra MP40/MP44.

As pointed out, I still don't see why one MP44 over and above normal establishment merits an increase in FP by 1 to a normal 1st line squad, in addition to the other considerations mentioned in the thread. Doesn't make sense.
 

RobZagnut

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I'm not advocating any new squads types until I get my,

6-0, 6-1, 7+1, 7-1, 8-2, 9-0, 10-0, 10-1 leaders.

Leader reform now! If MMP can incremental an IFT, incremental Finnish squads and possibly incremental German squads they sure as hell can incremental leaders.
 
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Evan Sherry

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Has anyone else read "Victory was Beyond their Grasp"?
A VERY good history of a VGD in '44/'45.
The large number of uneducated responses to this thread indicates that many players have limited knowledge of the composition of a volksgrenadier division, the types of individual weapons that they were issued and of their record of performance in action. The fact is a great many soldiers in VG divisions were armed with MP44s. The 5-4-8 is not an appropriate squad to represent a VG squad. Despite cadres of experienced NCOs and other ranks, VG units were characterized by a low level of esprit de corps stemming from hastily organized units that had little training above individual and squad level which resulted poor unit cohesion, limited coordination of tactical effort above company level, and a general lack of zeal when incontact with the enemy in anything but a defensive role.

The proposed 5-4-7 (with spray fire and possibly, assault fire capabilities) is a good representation of this type of unit. A broken side morale of 6 is also a very good idea that should be considered. ELR 2 will be most common, with ELR 3 representing the very best VG unit. As for the unit replacement, going to 4-4-7 is a natural down grade, but the drop from 5-4-7 to 4-3-6 is also intriguing.

I find it interesting that many nay-sayers regarding this proposed squad are also the same players who clammer for more new counters to be introduced into the ASL system and quickly chime in with accolades for other publishers who have introduced the myiad of counters that are in reality just overpriced novelties with excessive chrome, lavish tail fins, and gaudy hood ornaments.

I have no real interest in producing the 5-4-7 myself and for the most part, I do not see the need for many new counters to be introduced into the ASL system. But from the position of an experienced scenario designer, I find the German counter mix lacking in its ability to effectively portray the VG squad with anything other than a 4-4-7 with assault fire or a 4-3-6.

If you are an ASL player who has not read Victory was Beyond their Grasp, you should turn in your ASL gear and go back to playing Panzerblitz.
 
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Roadtogundagai

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...These represent those guys who were really good long range marksmen, but they took a long time lining up their shots. And if they got shot back at then they just couldn't be bothered and left the field.
Already in the system as the 6-6-6 squad.
 

Honza

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Why not? Most 'Infanterie ' divisions were being called VG by Autumn 1944. Some, such as the 26th were composed of veteran landsers with good leadership, who were differentiated from PG divisions mainly by the shortage of motorized transport.

Others sucked-but so did certain Panzer or PG units.
Is that right. Thanks for the response.

If these 547 counters are ever going to be produced it will become an issue whether they are designated 1st line or 2nd line. If 1st line they could be substituted by a 447. If 2nd line they can only be substituted by a 436. Because unit substitution is always a reduction in unit class too.

I guess I was being a bit finickity by saying a 1st line 547 could hardly be called a volksgrenadier. I'd be happy with 1st line 547's and 2nd line 447's as volksgrenadier units.
 

rdw5150

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I find it interesting that many nay-sayers regarding this proposed squad are also the same players who clammer for more new counters to be introduced into the ASL system and quickly chime in with accolades for other publishers who have introduced the myiad of counters that are in reality just overpriced novelties with excessive chrome, lavish tail fins, and gaudy hood ornaments.
Sort of like your proposed 5-4-7: needless chrome:rolleyes:..................

Sorry if that sounds negative, but your whole post sounded pretty negative and condescending (to me). First you insult those who do not agree with you, calling them uneducated and then you insult other companies and their products not to mention their pricing (at least that is how I took it, but, I have not had my coffee yet today).

Dale Carnegie my friend, Dale Carnegie

Roger
 
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Mister T

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What I like in the SP approach is that they do not want to issue counters of their own, but rather suggest, based on historical facts, that MMP should issue them so that everyone could eventually have access to them through the purchase of official products. It seems to me a cooperative attitude.
 

rdw5150

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What I like in the SP approach is that they do not want to issue counters of their own, but rather suggest, based on historical facts, that MMP should issue them so that everyone could eventually have access to them through the purchase of official products. It seems to me a cooperative attitude.
Hello!

What counter added to the system came from an SP suggestion?

Peace

Roger
 
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Delirium

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If you are an ASL player who has not read Victory was Beyond their Grasp, you should turn in your ASL gear and go back to playing Panzerblitz.
Gosh! I don't have Panzerblitz but would Carcassonne be ok?

From my uneducated, poorly read and nay-saying perspective, I'm inclined toward the view that additional German squad types are unwarranted. Cons outweigh pros.
 

Jacometti

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The large number of uneducated responses to this thread indicates that many players have limited knowledge of the composition of a volksgrenadier division, the types of individual weapons that they were issued and of their record of performance in action.

If you are an ASL player who has not read Victory was Beyond their Grasp, you should turn in your ASL gear and go back to playing Panzerblitz.
I don't think these kind of comments show much tolerance for different views.

You asked a question to the forum, did you not?

The answer from many ASL players is, they do not see much need for this new counter (as SSR and ELR enable you to get very close to what you want to portray, anyway). A mix of 5-4-8s and 4-4-7s with Assault Fire seems to satisfy most players.

As a designer, I would say there are other nationalities which suffer from real limitations in the countermix. Although more counters always means more options, the German and US counter mixes already are the most extensive ones available.

The best example of limited counter mixes is the fact that there is no Allied Minor MMC with an unbroken Morale of 6.

I don't need any SINGLE specific book to tell me that creates a real problem depicting the performance of many Allied Minor infantry units. The KNIL in Netherlands East Indies being one of them, for example. But I am sure there were many more.
 

Mister T

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Hello!

What other counter added to the system came from an SP suggestion?

Peace

Roger
None to my knowledge, but it's good to make sensible suggestions. If such suggestions do not meet demand, fine, but it's better asking before, rather than force feeding players with extra counters with sometimes very limited overall usefulness.

Peace :)
 

Mister T

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The answer from many ASL players is, they do not see much need for this new counter (as SSR and ELR enable you to get very close to what you want to portray, anyway). A mix of 5-4-8s and 4-4-7s with Assault Fire seems to satisfy most players.
:eek:
We need a poll. :laugh:
 

Michael Dorosh

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The large number of uneducated responses to this thread indicates that many players have limited knowledge of the composition of a volksgrenadier division, the types of individual weapons that they were issued and of their record of performance in action. The fact is a great many soldiers in VG divisions were armed with MP44s. The 5-4-8 is not an appropriate squad to represent a VG squad. Despite cadres of experienced NCOs and other ranks, VG units were characterized by a low level of esprit de corps stemming from hastily organized units that had little training above individual and squad level which resulted poor unit cohesion, limited coordination of tactical effort above company level, and a general lack of zeal when incontact with the enemy in anything but a defensive role.

The proposed 5-4-7 (with spray fire and possibly, assault fire capabilities) is a good representation of this type of unit. A broken side morale of 6 is also a very good idea that should be considered. ELR 2 will be most common, with ELR 3 representing the very best VG unit. As for the unit replacement, going to 4-4-7 is a natural down grade, but the drop from 5-4-7 to 4-3-6 is also intriguing.

I find it interesting that many nay-sayers regarding this proposed squad are also the same players who clammer for more new counters to be introduced into the ASL system and quickly chime in with accolades for other publishers who have introduced the myiad of counters that are in reality just overpriced novelties with excessive chrome, lavish tail fins, and gaudy hood ornaments.

I have no real interest in producing the 5-4-7 myself and for the most part, I do not see the need for many new counters to be introduced into the ASL system. But from the position of an experienced scenario designer, I find the German counter mix lacking in its ability to effectively portray the VG squad with anything other than a 4-4-7 with assault fire or a 4-3-6.

If you are an ASL player who has not read Victory was Beyond their Grasp, you should turn in your ASL gear and go back to playing Panzerblitz.
Evan, if you honestly believe you can base a new counter solely on counting noses and machine pistols, without taking into account the fact that basic training time was slashed, instructional cadres were made up of convalescents, and recruiting age was extended both well below and above the previous minimum/maximum ages, I would politely suggest it is you who has not done your due diligence on what was going into the line with the German Army in 1944-45.

Perhaps you could post a snippet or two from the book in question that would suggest to you why you feel this change would be appropriate. It might be more constructive than insulting those who have enthusiastically taken part in the conversation you initiatiated. I am sure many would find it of interest.

As stated above, a machine pistol/assault rifle is useless if the 16 year old boy carrying it is too inexperienced or just plain scared to lift his face out of the dirt to fire it. Had you suggested the 5-4-7 in 1985, it would have been an easier sell. To demand it now, there are plenty of reasons to think that 1 FP either way is pretty easy to dismiss, mostly in the name of expediency.
 

rdw5150

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None to my knowledge, but it's good to make sensible suggestions. If such suggestions do not meet demand, fine, but it's better asking before, rather than force feeding players with extra counters with sometimes very limited overall usefulness.

Peace :)
Greetings!

The good thing is most TPP are optional purchases and not *really* needed. Of course we buy them, but any counters with them are gravy to the system. I freely admit, I like counters. But I am not a fan nor do I see any need (but then again, I am uneducated:(:smoke:) to add yet another "official" German squad type to the counter. I mean truly how many do we need for one nationality.

Peace

Roger
 
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