5-4-7 Volksgrenadier Squad

Evan Sherry

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Do you think the ASL sytem could use a 5-4-7 Volksgrenadier squad?

This squad would be an alternate 1st line squad, available in 1944 onward. It would share the 2-4-7 HS with the 4-6-7.

It could suffer unit replacement in the normal manner, or it could have a unique replacement straight to 4-3-6.

Currently, when I design scenarios using the Volksgrenadier squad, I use 4-4-7s with an SSR that gives them assault fire.

What say ye scenario designers?
 

Honza

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Why hasn't the 547 squad got assault FP? Shouldn't the FP factor be underlined?

Otherwise I think a 547 squad would be a worthy addition to the system. I take it would be a 1st line squad? Not second line.

I think it is worth promoting it.
 

Gunner Scott

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Hi ya-

I like the idea Exan, Are you planning to publish a set of Volksgrenadier Scenarios with a counter sheet of 547's?


Scott
 

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Why would they get higher firepower and the same morale as a first line squad?
 

Evan Sherry

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Hi ya-

I like the idea Exan, Are you planning to publish a set of Volksgrenadier Scenarios with a counter sheet of 547's?


Scott
No, the 5-4-7 should be an official MMP product. I have considered the idea and we have the capability to do counters, but that is not what Schwerpunkt does. I would much rather push MMP to include this alternate squad counter as part of a Journal, so every ASLer would have the squad. It has merit and I hope that Chas Argent becomes an advocate of the 5-4-7.
 
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Evan Sherry

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Why would they get higher firepower and the same morale as a first line squad?
These squads had MP44 assault rifles as part/in addition to their TO&E instead of bolt action rifles. Their morale of 7 makes them a alternative 1st line squad. A volksgrenadier (VG) OB could well consist of 5-4-7s, 4-4-7s (if they were part of the squad progression), and 4-3-6s. This would reflect the rather hasty nature of the VG organization in the 1944-45 period without resorting to the use of 5-4-8s, which is completely inappropriate for most VG actions I have encountered.

Brian Williams suggested that the 5-3-7 could go straight to 4-3-6 when it suffers unit replacement. It does sound interesting, but the problem is that German squads in VG scenarios will most likely have an ELR of 2 to reflect their limited training, esprit de corps, and general late war disillusion. With ELR 2, we could quickly find or VG unit with a bunch of 4-3-6s

I know many will say the Germans have too many squad types. I disagree. I will say that they probably have too many of the wrong types of squads. I have found no example in any historical account that I have read to explain the 8-3-8. This squad is a whacky squad that originated in the beginning of the SL system. If SL/ASL were designed today, This squad would probably have an maximum FP of 6.
 
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Gunner Scott

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No, the 5-4-7 should be an official MMP product. I have considered the idea and we have the capability to do counters, but that is not what Schwerpunkt does. I would much rather push MMP to include this alternate squad counter as part of a Journal, so every ASLer would have the squad. It has merit and I hope that Chas Argent becomes an advocate of the 5-4-7.
Well dont hold your breath on MMP doing something like what you mentioned or if they do, it will be light years away. Maybe design a set of scenarios around Volksgrenadier actions with the 547 in mind and submitte to MMP, might be sometime before it gets published, but at least you did it.


Scott
 

Aaron Cleavin

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These squads had MP44 assault rifles as part/in addition to their TO&E instead of bolt action rifles. Their morale of 7 makes them a alternative 1st line squad. A volksgrenadier (VG) OB could well consist of 5-4-7s, 4-4-7s (if they were part of the squad progression), and 4-3-6s. This would reflect the rather hasty nature of the VG organization in the 1944-45 period without resorting to the use of 5-4-8s, which is completely inappropriate for most VG actions I have encountered.

Brian Williams suggested that the 5-3-7 could go straight to 4-3-6 when it suffers unit replacement. It does sound interesting, but the problem is that German squads in VG scenarios will most likely have an ELR of 2 to reflect their limited training, esprit de corps, and general late war disillusion. With ELR 2, we could quickly find or VG unit with a bunch of 4-3-6s

I know many will say the Germans have too many squad types. I disagree. I will say that they probably have too many of the wrong types of squads. I have found no example in any historical account that I have read to explain the 8-3-8. This squad is a whacky squad that originated in the beginning of the SL system. If SL/ASL were designed today, This squad would probably have an maximum FP of 6.
A 547 with assault fire though would be only different to a 447 with assault fire at point blank range in advancing fire and in CC.

Any evidence these units were better in CC then normal first line units?

If not there doesn't seem to be a lot of point to the unit.
 

Vinnie

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It seems like fairly pointless chrome to me. I've not read many instances if VG units being better on the attack than standard Landsers. In defence the higher FP would be better reflected by more LMGs.
 

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What is needed more in my opinion is a different squad type to differentiate between an ELR'd Russian 447 and 527. Both using a 426 doesn't cut it in my book. The 447 should ELR to a 346 or even 336 like the Itailians. The difference exists in my opinion on the design decision to prop up the CC value of the Russian conscript unit to reflect their experiences in Stalingrad.
 

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Do you think the ASL sytem could use a 5-4-7 Volksgrenadier squad?
This squad would be an alternate 1st line squad, available in 1944 onward. It would share the 2-4-7 HS with the 4-6-7. It could suffer unit replacement in the normal manner, or it could have a unique replacement straight to 4-3-6. Currently, when I design scenarios using the Volksgrenadier squad, I use 4-4-7s with an SSR that gives them assault fire.

What say ye scenario designers?
Yep.:smoke:
 

Honza

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Brian Williams suggested that the 5-3-7 could go straight to 4-3-6 when it suffers unit replacement. It does sound interesting, but the problem is that German squads in VG scenarios will most likely have an ELR of 2 to reflect their limited training, esprit de corps, and general late war disillusion. With ELR 2, we could quickly find or VG unit with a bunch of 4-3-6s.
That is why I asked if the 547 would be classified as a 1st line squad or a 2nd line squad.

It makes all the difference when they suffer unit replacement.

If they were classified as 1st line, then they would hardly be eligible to be called Volksgrenadiers. If they were 2nd line then they would be replaced by a 436 for ELR failure.
 

Ray Woloszyn

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I am a Luddite but one who is running out of counter storage for MMP and TPP counters. Enough! The current 436 reminds me of my own military prowess, East German VEB products as well as my Volkswagen (the one made in Empalme, Mexico). Besides these are the only units that do not lose anything but moral while deploying (mostly involuntarily). Are these not perfectly good reasons to rain on Evan’s parade :)
 

Michael Dorosh

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I am a Luddite but one who is running out of counter storage for MMP and TPP counters. Enough! The current 436 reminds me of my own military prowess, East German VEB products as well as my Volkswagen (the one made in Empalme, Mexico). Besides these are the only units that do not lose anything but moral while deploying (mostly involuntarily). Are these not perfectly good reasons to rain on Evan’s parade :)
There are others. The fact that the draft age in Germany was plummeting by the time these units were forming was another. It's one thing to count noses and assault rifles and come up with a theoretical firepower number for a typical squad; it's another to consider manpower shortages and the fact that basic training times were halved by 1944. Experienced cadres were scarce. In combat, you could probably expect fewer men (boys) to actually be firing their weapons. There is little justification I can see for the firepower bump when you move from the theoretical to the practical, especially if it involves a new class of counter, etc.

Have to agree with the comments that it would be chrome at this point, as far as a new addition to the system. Don't forget, it would mean changing the Chapter A divider - it's rare that you can change something in ASL and not have to shoehorn changes in at multiple points.

Not worth the effort in my opinion. For specific cases or units, SSRs, as always, work mighty fine.
 

Spencer Armstrong

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A 547 with assault fire though would be only different to a 447 with assault fire at point blank range in advancing fire and in CC.

Any evidence these units were better in CC then normal first line units?

If not there doesn't seem to be a lot of point to the unit.
Agree with Aaron's math. You have to fire four of them together before they're different from 447s, as well. EDIT: They do handle German LMGs better a la 548s.

But, basically, I don't see the need. Add'l squad types outside the ELR chain are best reserved to unique situations, not "pseudo core" IMO. (And new squad types in the ELR chain are too large a change).

S
 
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CH did some 5-4-7 squads, many years ago as part of their original Pointe du Hoc. They were designated as SMG squads.

Advantages:
They completed the 5-4-8 -> 5-4-7 -> 4-4-7 -> 4-3-7 sequence.
If they became standard it would mean that early and mid war Fallschirmjäger squads would have an extra ERL step, which would better reflect their resilience.
Ditto for 5-4-8 designated as Assault Engineers (which are closer to historical AE than the 8-3-8).
Ditto for later war higher quality 5-4-8, eg formations like GD.
They allow for standard quality troops with more automatic weapons than early war norm.

Disadvantages:
The HS for the (1) 5-4-7 would have the same values as for the (2) 4-4-7, IE 2-3-7. Either force recombining 2-3-7 to always go to (2) 4-4-7 or have two 2-3-7, a (1) 2-3-7 and a (2) 2-3-7 which would have to be an exception to A19.13, never mind potentially confusing.

The big question is which of a 4 step or 3 step 5-4-8 quality reduction should become the norm. The in the 39-43 period I would see the 4 step as being justified whilst 44+ the 3 step would be the norm with exceptions for certain units by SSR.

The biggest obstacle, I suspect, will be the hue and cry by many players. Natural reluctance by MMP to tinker with long established units will be the lesser problem.
 

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A 547 with assault fire though would be only different to a 447 with assault fire at point blank range in advancing fire and in CC.

Any evidence these units were better in CC then normal first line units?

If not there doesn't seem to be a lot of point to the unit.
Other than the Adv Fire phase there is little difference, on their own. With a LMG/HMG a 5 goes to 8/12 whilst a 4 stays at 6/8. With a MMG both are on the 8.

In the Adv Fire, assuming assault fire, on their own there is a difference. At 1 hex range it is 6 vs 5 (4 fp column), at 2-4 hexes 4 vs 3 (2 fp column). In all cases of multiple squads there is at least a column advantage (at least until both are 36+). AF is where the Soviet 5-2-7 is as good as the 6-2-8, though not in Prep Fire and Def Fire.

The question of whether any type or nationality is better in CC is, with certain exceptions like the Japanese, swept under the carpet by the simplification of working with inherent fp. You have the situation where a Green US 5-3-6 is rated better than an elite German 4-6-8 in CC. Is that fair or historical? CC is an over simplification that we have lived with years, so I see no reason to object here.
 

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Do you think the ASL sytem could use a 5-4-7 Volksgrenadier squad?

This squad would be an alternate 1st line squad, available in 1944 onward. It would share the 2-4-7 HS with the 4-6-7.

It could suffer unit replacement in the normal manner, or it could have a unique replacement straight to 4-3-6.

Currently, when I design scenarios using the Volksgrenadier squad, I use 4-4-7s with an SSR that gives them assault fire.

What say ye scenario designers?

I can't see introducing it into the regular modules for the reasons others have mentioned above, but maybe as part of an HASL module for a battle where Volksgrenadiers played a major role. (A quick Google search suggests Aachen would be a possibility.) That way the counters are "in the system" and TPP designers can use them in the future, but from MMP's perspective they don't have to issue a new Chapter A divider or otherwise deal with the question of "correcting" existing official scenarios with Volksgrenadier units.
 

Dave Lamb

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CH did some 5-4-7 squads, many years ago as part of their original Pointe du Hoc. They were designated as SMG squads.
I think we only used it the one time. I don't foresee us reusing them. They were a (semi-)cool one-time variant counter. Outside of HASL, I think a mixture of 5-4-8 and 4-4-7 squads suffice in most circumstances.

With that being said, a HASL that uses them (and for good historical reasons) would be welcomed. I like variant counters in general.
 
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