#33: Second Semi Final

RandyT0001

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Happy anniversary! One year of Illuminating Rounds.
 

daveramsey

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Thanks Randy! We remembered a few weeks ago and then promptly forgot! :)

So - other than checking out that great semi-final, we talked about our worst scenarios, got some tips about avoiding vbm freeze and talked a little about the ramifications of calling out rules stuff on opponents.

And don't worry... I'm sorting out Martin's camera as I can't take that ghost-like image anymore! :)
 

RandyT0001

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Toby's advice to check for sufficient space for VBM with a counter is quite useful for a FtF game. Is there a template to use in VASL that rotates around a selected hex (using ctrl cw and ctrl ccw commands) to check for sufficient space. Maybe an overlay that blocks the hex but leaves the edges clear, denoting sufficient space.

Maybe somebody more familiar with VASL can provide an answer.
 

JoeArthur

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Is there a template to use in VASL that rotates around a selected hex (using ctrl cw and ctrl ccw commands) to check for sufficient space. Maybe an overlay that blocks the hex but leaves the edges clear, denoting sufficient space.
There is such an overlay - it is this extension:

5VBM.mdxVBM-checker in Draggable Overlays WindowexperimentalJeffrey Malter

Available here:


I had it used against me and it came as a bit of a surprise to see that I could not bypass ?

Thanks Martin and Dave for another entertaining episode.
 

Tuomo

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Go Dwayne! Beat Dave!

I know you're Canadian and all, but channel that inner Commonwealth Rage! Those red coats taxed you guys without representation too!
 

JoeArthur

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So, Toby states that a CE AFV cannot freeze someone on level 2. Is that statement correct?

I find it surprising that he might be wrong but there is this thread:


Where JRV states that you are not frozen if you are in a cellar, but higher levels are.

Martin Vicca states:

Pretty sure you have to be CE to freeze the guy on the first level.
You suffer target selection limits if: 1. your location is occupied. If the tank is in the building location or in bypass of the building then it is in the ground level location and the unit on the ground level is frozen.
2. If you have a TPBF opportunity. This requires a valid target and if the vehicle is not CE there is no target. The interesting effect of this is if you park in bypass while CE the guy on the second level is frozen but the vehicle, not having a TPBF opportunity, is not. It does not matter if your weapon can not bear on the target for this effect.


So who is right please?

I was playing Cpl Uhl who stated that a Second Level unit can be frozen (he froze mine using this method) and has pointed to those threads as justification.
 

lightspeed

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So, Toby states that a CE AFV cannot freeze someone on level 2. Is that statement correct?

I find it surprising that he might be wrong but there is this thread:


Where JRV states that you are not frozen if you are in a cellar, but higher levels are.

Martin Vicca states:

Pretty sure you have to be CE to freeze the guy on the first level.
You suffer target selection limits if: 1. your location is occupied. If the tank is in the building location or in bypass of the building then it is in the ground level location and the unit on the ground level is frozen.
2. If you have a TPBF opportunity. This requires a valid target and if the vehicle is not CE there is no target. The interesting effect of this is if you park in bypass while CE the guy on the second level is frozen but the vehicle, not having a TPBF opportunity, is not. It does not matter if your weapon can not bear on the target for this effect.


So who is right please?

I was playing Cpl Uhl who stated that a Second Level unit can be frozen (he froze mine using this method) and has pointed to those threads as justification.

A7.211 and A7.212. It's all there. A BU CT AFV at level 0 does not freeze a unit at level .ge. 1.

indy
 

JoeArthur

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Indy.

I just spoke to Martin Vicca who by chance is on VASL and he quoted those two rules at me as well. He stated that a CE AFV in Bypass can freeze a level 2 unit in that hex. It is all about whether you can TBF or not. A level 2 unit can TBF at a CE tank at ground level - so it is "frozen". Due to the elevation the tank cannot TBF at the level 2 infantry so it is not "frozen".

So it appears Toby is wrong?
 

Toby Pilling

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Indeed, looking at the rules again it seems that at level 2 and above, one is eligible for TPBF against vulnerable PRC of vehicles in bypass below and therefore can be 'frozen'. At least being at Level 2 makes the bypassing AFV much more vulnerable, though - OT vehicles are treated as unarmoured, I believe, and the CE modifier for CT vehicles is reduced too. As such, there are benefits to being at level 2 (or higher) against being 'frozen', even if one is not invulnerable to it.
 

Vinnie

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Of course it's always ditustionally dependent but going CE when someone us above you is a very risky move eith some benefits.
 

JoeArthur

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At least being at Level 2 makes the bypassing AFV much more vulnerable, though - OT vehicles are treated as unarmoured, I believe, and the CE modifier for CT vehicles is reduced too.
OT treated as not having the +2 CE modifier is in D6.61.

Cannot find anything about the CE modifier for CT vehicles being reduced - where is that please Toby?

Apparently it was Steven Cook who spotted that we had been playing it wrong all these years - kudos to him ?
 

AdrianE

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In a scenario that depends on building control and the defender is given one or more hip MMC, he really should think about using that HIP MMC to mess up building control or to take it back after the fighting has moved on. The longer the MMC remains HIP the more time the attacker loses scouting all locations, searching and mopping up.

Z8L1, R4L1 might be good for a HIP 447
W10L1 is also interesting
 

Michael R

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Cannot find anything about the CE modifier for CT vehicles being reduced - where is that please Toby?
D5.31 CE DRM: A CE counter represents the Vulnerability of an AFV crew to Collateral Attacks. A CE crew is normally entitled to a +2 DRM due to the partial protection afforded by the AFV but some AFV receive (according to their Vehicle Notes) more protection (or less) depending upon the Target-Facing/Aspect (C3.9) through which they are fired on. Non-Fire Lane Residual FP attacks receive the CE DRM that applies to the Side Target Facing. An OT AFV's normal (usually +2) CE DRM can be reduced by Elevation Effects as per 6.61, and by Air Bursts (B13.3); see 5.311.
 

Toby Pilling

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Ah, so it's only OT vehicles who have the CE DRM reduced. Even so, to 'freeze-sleeze' units at those higher levels, CT AFVs still need to unbutton, making their PRC vulnerable - again, being high up in buildings makes VBM freeze harder.
 
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